I was discussing with CC how theologians deal with evil things happening to apparently non-evil people. I can understand easily enough how this makes sense if one posits a non-interventionist or non-rational God. (Personally, I find myself somewhere between "there is no God" and "if there is a God, so what?" In both cases, decidedly non-interventionist. As for God's rationality, though the question does not directly apply, my faith in science is in its own way a deeply, even essentially, rational God of sorts.)
However, I don't understand how one can rationally reconcile evil things happening to non-evil people, or evil things happening to good people, with a rational and interventionist God. If one takes the rationality and interventionism of God as axiomatic, it simply does not seem to make sense that evil things would happen to other than evil people. It seems to me that the only way to reconcile evil things happening to apparently non-evil people with a rational and interventionist God is to seize on the "apparently" in "apparently non-evil". Having only human perception, we cannot know for sure whether someone is evil, so if a rational and interventionist God allows evil things to happen to them, they must have been evil after all.
It seems like such a copout to say that God must not really care all that much after all - there goes God's being interventionist - or that God doesn't actually have the power to change much of anything - again, there goes God's being interventionist. Same goes for asserting that God is irrational - what's the point of even studying God then?
My understanding from CC is that all modern theologians (post-Holocaust) she's read about have rejected the idea that evil things happening to someone implies that they are evil, even those theologians who believe in a rational, interventionist God. I don't see how that can be possible without giving up on some of the essential characteristics of such a God - how do they do it? What am I missing?
Showing posts with label TheCSO writes. Show all posts
Showing posts with label TheCSO writes. Show all posts
Saturday, October 21, 2006
Monday, February 27, 2006
TheCSO clarifies CC's Phelps post
Last night, I saw Joel's comment and thought to myself "to answer this properly, I'm going to have to write a little essay. Ah, screw it. I'll write it in the morning." I woke up a bit ago and couldn't get back to sleep so I came in here to write and found that my beloved CSO had already written said essay. He posted it in the comments, but I thought it deserved a place on the main pag of the blog.
Because, like it or not, we have a two-party system in this country. Whichever party is closer to the views of a nutjob gets tarred by what they do. The Democratic Party gets associated with every nutjob liberal cause out there, because they're closer to it than the Republicans are. Look at the "legalize all drugs NOW" people. The Democrats don't want to be associated with them, but they are - because they're closer to that groups views than the Republicans are.
Since Phelps' views are *closer* to the Republicans than to the Democrats, the Republicans get stuck with him as a matter of public opinion. He's *their* problem. That's not fair, that's not right, but that's how the American system of political parties works.
I don't see this as a general attack on all Republicans. It's a criticism of Democratic party tactics, nothing more. They should just issue a cursory denouncement for the record that no one will read, then sit back and watch the fireworks.
There *is* a certain minority in this country who basically agree with Phelps. Statistically, most of those people are Republicans. That's NOT saying that all, or even most, Republicans agree with him - just that of the people who DO agree with him, far more are Republicans than are Democrats. That, too, makes him the Republicans' problem.
Because, like it or not, we have a two-party system in this country. Whichever party is closer to the views of a nutjob gets tarred by what they do. The Democratic Party gets associated with every nutjob liberal cause out there, because they're closer to it than the Republicans are. Look at the "legalize all drugs NOW" people. The Democrats don't want to be associated with them, but they are - because they're closer to that groups views than the Republicans are.
Since Phelps' views are *closer* to the Republicans than to the Democrats, the Republicans get stuck with him as a matter of public opinion. He's *their* problem. That's not fair, that's not right, but that's how the American system of political parties works.
I don't see this as a general attack on all Republicans. It's a criticism of Democratic party tactics, nothing more. They should just issue a cursory denouncement for the record that no one will read, then sit back and watch the fireworks.
There *is* a certain minority in this country who basically agree with Phelps. Statistically, most of those people are Republicans. That's NOT saying that all, or even most, Republicans agree with him - just that of the people who DO agree with him, far more are Republicans than are Democrats. That, too, makes him the Republicans' problem.
Sunday, February 05, 2006
TheCSO explains "witnessing"
Actually, *proper* Christian witness (not the coercion that some Christians *think* is witnessing) has respect for reason and individual choice. Yes, it does start from the premise that a specific belief system is correct - but there is a fundamental respect for the rights of others to choose alternate paths.
If this is what we mean by "witness", then yes - I think that UU witness is a great idea. Obviously the specifics would be a bit different, but the overall ideas are surprisingly similar.
A good example of a code for proper Christian witness is the IVCF's Code of Ethics for Christian Witness:
As Christians called by the Living God, we seek first of all to honor Him and His ethical standards in all of our private and public lives, including our efforts to persuade others to believe the good news about Jesus Christ.
As Christian evangelists, we seek to follow the mandate, motives, message, and model of our God who is always pursuing and reclaiming those who are lost in sin and rebellion against Him.
We believe all people are created in God's image and therefore endowed with the capacity to be in relationship with their Creator and Redeemer. We disavow any effort to influence people that de-personalize or deprive them of their inherent value as persons.
Respecting the value of persons, we believe all people worthy of hearing the gospel of this loving Lord Jesus Christ. We equally affirm the inalienable right of every person to survey other opinions and convert to or choose a different belief system.
We believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and affirm the role and goal of the Christian evangelist. However, we do not believe that this justifies any means to fulfill that end. Hence, we disavow the use of any coercive techniques or manipulative appeals which bypass a person's critical faculties, play on psychological weaknesses, undermine relationship with family or religious institutions, or mask the true nature of Christian conversion.
While respecting the individual integrity, intellectual honesty, and academic freedom of all other believers and skeptics, we seek to proclaim Christ openly. We reveal our own identity and purpose, our theological positions and sources of information and will not be intentionally misleading. Respect for human integrity means no false advertising, no personal aggrandizement from successfully persuading others to follow Jesus, and no overly emotional appeals which minimize reason and evidence.
As Christian evangelists, we seek to embrace people of other religious persuasions in true dialogue. That is, we acknowledge our common humanity as equally sinful, equally needy, and equally dependent on the grace of God we proclaim. We seek to listen sensitively in order to understand, and thus divest our witness of any stereotypes or fixed formulae which are barriers to true dialogue.
As Christian evangelists, we accept the obligation to admonish one who represents the Christian faith in any manner incompatible with these ethical guidelines.
I stand corrected.
CC
If this is what we mean by "witness", then yes - I think that UU witness is a great idea. Obviously the specifics would be a bit different, but the overall ideas are surprisingly similar.
A good example of a code for proper Christian witness is the IVCF's Code of Ethics for Christian Witness:
As Christians called by the Living God, we seek first of all to honor Him and His ethical standards in all of our private and public lives, including our efforts to persuade others to believe the good news about Jesus Christ.
As Christian evangelists, we seek to follow the mandate, motives, message, and model of our God who is always pursuing and reclaiming those who are lost in sin and rebellion against Him.
We believe all people are created in God's image and therefore endowed with the capacity to be in relationship with their Creator and Redeemer. We disavow any effort to influence people that de-personalize or deprive them of their inherent value as persons.
Respecting the value of persons, we believe all people worthy of hearing the gospel of this loving Lord Jesus Christ. We equally affirm the inalienable right of every person to survey other opinions and convert to or choose a different belief system.
We believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and affirm the role and goal of the Christian evangelist. However, we do not believe that this justifies any means to fulfill that end. Hence, we disavow the use of any coercive techniques or manipulative appeals which bypass a person's critical faculties, play on psychological weaknesses, undermine relationship with family or religious institutions, or mask the true nature of Christian conversion.
While respecting the individual integrity, intellectual honesty, and academic freedom of all other believers and skeptics, we seek to proclaim Christ openly. We reveal our own identity and purpose, our theological positions and sources of information and will not be intentionally misleading. Respect for human integrity means no false advertising, no personal aggrandizement from successfully persuading others to follow Jesus, and no overly emotional appeals which minimize reason and evidence.
As Christian evangelists, we seek to embrace people of other religious persuasions in true dialogue. That is, we acknowledge our common humanity as equally sinful, equally needy, and equally dependent on the grace of God we proclaim. We seek to listen sensitively in order to understand, and thus divest our witness of any stereotypes or fixed formulae which are barriers to true dialogue.
As Christian evangelists, we accept the obligation to admonish one who represents the Christian faith in any manner incompatible with these ethical guidelines.
I stand corrected.
CC
Saturday, November 05, 2005
theCSO: More on the HPV vaccine..
There is another reason for this, one I see as primary. One of the major scare tactics used by the abstinence-only folks is "Condoms haven't been proven effective against HPV, so you could catch HPV even if you use a condom.. better wait until marriage."
They're mostly banking on how HPV has a very similar acronym to HIV. Nevermind that condoms, properly used, have been proven highly effective against HIV which, unlike HPV, is deadly. Nevermind that HPV has no serious symptoms (and is often completely asymptomatic) except for the cervical cancer risk, and that there IS evidence that condoms reduce that risk. For that matter, nevermind that the increased cervical cancer risk is actually quite small.
When it comes down to it, I think the real issue is that this vaccine would take away a favored arguement against premarital sex. I don't think it's the reason anyone will rally around, but I think it's a large part of the real issue.
I do wonder what the religious right would do if an effective HIV vaccine was to be announced. Would they oppose mandatory vaccination?
Also, there's a quite different question about this vaccine, one that probably won't be asked as much as it should be. And I'm not anti-vaccination in general. I have some reservations about the chicken pox vaccine for this same reason, but generally support vaccine and mandatory vaccine programs.
Basically, the only group that needs this vaccine from a *clinical* perspective is girls. And even then, the risk that's being protected against is pretty small. In men, HPV is generally asymptomatic and doesn't increase the risk of any disease, so there really isn't a clinical reason to inoculate boys. There isn't even a good *test* for HPV in men - in women, there's a limited test for some of the high-risk types that can be done during a pap smear. Even there, the treatment is basically "Be really sure to not skip your next pap smear, just in case." From a public-health perspective, it makes sense to eliminate a reservoir, so any mandatory vaccination program would have to include both.
There is also the consideration that it would reduce the number of 'nuisance' cases by preventing the three most common strains that increase cervical cancer risk - but that's only some of the high-risk types, and not even the low-risk types that cause more visible lesions. It's also possible that widespread vaccination against these more common strains would help make the other strains more common.
Basically, it comes down to whether preventing a few cases of cervical cancer and some people from getting annoying but treatable warts that eventually go away is worth the risk and expense that goes into vaccinating everybody. Chicken pox doesn't kill or cripple in kids either, it's just annoying, and the chicken pox vaccine got pushed through on that basis.
This is about money, just like the chicken pox vaccine was. Merck would love to sell millions of doses of this vaccine, and what better way to do that than to make it mandatory?
They're mostly banking on how HPV has a very similar acronym to HIV. Nevermind that condoms, properly used, have been proven highly effective against HIV which, unlike HPV, is deadly. Nevermind that HPV has no serious symptoms (and is often completely asymptomatic) except for the cervical cancer risk, and that there IS evidence that condoms reduce that risk. For that matter, nevermind that the increased cervical cancer risk is actually quite small.
When it comes down to it, I think the real issue is that this vaccine would take away a favored arguement against premarital sex. I don't think it's the reason anyone will rally around, but I think it's a large part of the real issue.
I do wonder what the religious right would do if an effective HIV vaccine was to be announced. Would they oppose mandatory vaccination?
Also, there's a quite different question about this vaccine, one that probably won't be asked as much as it should be. And I'm not anti-vaccination in general. I have some reservations about the chicken pox vaccine for this same reason, but generally support vaccine and mandatory vaccine programs.
Basically, the only group that needs this vaccine from a *clinical* perspective is girls. And even then, the risk that's being protected against is pretty small. In men, HPV is generally asymptomatic and doesn't increase the risk of any disease, so there really isn't a clinical reason to inoculate boys. There isn't even a good *test* for HPV in men - in women, there's a limited test for some of the high-risk types that can be done during a pap smear. Even there, the treatment is basically "Be really sure to not skip your next pap smear, just in case." From a public-health perspective, it makes sense to eliminate a reservoir, so any mandatory vaccination program would have to include both.
There is also the consideration that it would reduce the number of 'nuisance' cases by preventing the three most common strains that increase cervical cancer risk - but that's only some of the high-risk types, and not even the low-risk types that cause more visible lesions. It's also possible that widespread vaccination against these more common strains would help make the other strains more common.
Basically, it comes down to whether preventing a few cases of cervical cancer and some people from getting annoying but treatable warts that eventually go away is worth the risk and expense that goes into vaccinating everybody. Chicken pox doesn't kill or cripple in kids either, it's just annoying, and the chicken pox vaccine got pushed through on that basis.
This is about money, just like the chicken pox vaccine was. Merck would love to sell millions of doses of this vaccine, and what better way to do that than to make it mandatory?
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