Sunday, June 18, 2006

Another argument I had with theCSO yesterday

Yesterday night, I was organizing the books in our library. I put theCSO's Discordian books in the fiction section.

He says they are theology.

If you're not clear on what discordianism is, here's a decent explanation.

My argument is that Discordianism strikes me as a parody of Catholicism. If "Hank the Angry Drunken Dwarf" ran for president to highlight the absurdity of the American political system, then put out a book about politics, I wouldn't put it in the politics section. So why would I put a book produced by paraody religion in "theology?"

His is that nobody died and put me in charge of deeming what's a religion and what's not.

To some degree, this is a stupid argument. He expressed surprise that I was so insistent that Discordianism not be treated as a valid theology and that I became so passionate about the matter. (I may relent and stick it in Philosophy.)

Part of my annoyance was that I had the Discordians confused with the Church of the Subgenius. I read up on the Subgenius Custody Case recently and while I agree with the general sentiment that the mother shouldn't be penalized in custody matters for her religion, even if her religion is basically a parody. But I agree in the same halfhearted way that I agree with Happy Feminist that in a custody battle between a spousal abuser and a white supremacist, the white supremacist should win.

I'll kid you not, y'all, the Cleveland Free Times' description of these Subgenius events this woman was going to depressed the hell out of me. "Whee! Let's take a guy named Steve and change his name to 'Lord Jesus Christ' and parody the 'Passion of the Christ' and there need to be dildos! Lots of dildoes! Why? Because Conservative Christians hate that and that inherently makes it worth doing!"

What the fuck is up with that?

It's like how the first three minutes you spend at LandoverBaptist.com it's hilarious, and then you realize how much time how many people have to put into that site and how much they have to hate Christians to make a site that extensive that is devoted to making fun of Christianity in the nastiest ways they can think of.

I'm sick enough of YRUU kids telling me all sorts of bitchy things about Christians that they learned from their parents. I can't imagine the kind of hate the SubGenius woman's son is picking up, all in the name of "humor."

Because we all know that humor is innocent and fun and NEVER has an undercurrent of nastiness beneath it.

I'm not ignoring the relgious freedom aspects, I'm not advocating making these people stop.

But I seriously think they need to grow up.

CC

70 comments:

Joel Monka said...

Discordians and the Church of the Sub-Genius both remind me of a Simpsons episode showing two jaded teenagers at a Lollapalooza type festival. One says,"that's really cool, man." His companion ask,"Are you being ironic?' He replies,"I can't tell anymore."

The Happy Feminsit said...

Ha! I have never heard of parody religions before. Learn somethin' new everyday.

(I actually would put Hank the Angry Dwarf's book in the politics section, though.

Kim said...

You don't think there might be some reason so many people hate Christianity so much?

Chalicechick said...

Some people probably do have a reason for such things. If you spend six months doing something like that when you've just gotten out of fundamentalism, I'm not going to blame you.

At the same time, eventually you've got to move on and heal.

It's like somebody who five years after the divorce has to work a nasty joke about his ex-wife into every conversation. Eventually, lingering bitterness makes you suck.

We have a saying in Washington, "don't get mad, don't get even, get ahead."

CC

Anonymous said...

My ancestors judged which religions and races were serious and which were not.

That was 60 years ago, in Germany.

It was a lot less funny than ANY parody religion, believe it or not.

If you have an open mind, why even bother?

Two Beans said...

And I suppose believing in a mythical Santa Daddy in the sky for the past few thousand years or whatever is a grownup act.

You know, I heard if you don't believe in the mythical Santa Daddy in the sky, the mythical Santa Daddy will spank you then send you into the middle of the earth where there's lakes of fire and a really mean stranger that won't offer you candy, only more spankings.

But oh no, we should never mock those that do what the mythical Santa Daddy in the sky tell them to do.

Hail Eris.
Praise "Bob."

Two Beans said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Modemac said...

Let's see if I understand your reasoning: a parody of "Passion of the Christ" stems from hate for Christians. Therefore, the SubGenius mother in question is teaching her son to hate Christians.

So, mockery and parody are the result of hatred?

Perhaps you might consider that groups like the Church of the SubGenius may be engaging in parody and mockery of groups, activities, and beliefs that deserve to be mocked. For instance, mockery of the movie "The Passion of the Christ" -- which many viewers saw as an exercise in nihilism, consisting of little more than two hours of bloodletting and Hollywood movie gore. But because the movie is about Jesus, it is evidently beyond reproach. Is an adult-oriented mockery of an adults-only movie (remember, it was rated R) that dares to use sex toys rather than blood bags and Hollywood special effects is a symbol of hatred for Jesus...or is it a statement of how overblown and ridiculous the movie itself was?

Are the Monty Python performers teaching us to hate because they dared to make a movie called "Monty Python's Life of Brian?"

Chalicechick said...

Hey, I'm not saying people CAN'T do this stuff. I'm not trying to outlaw it.

I'm saying it is boorish and stupid and a little bit pathetic.

I guess it is important to me that the concept "religion" means something. I'm willing to accept sincere believers of all types, but people who don't have sincere belief and feel like they have to mock those who do depress me.

I realize in writing this I'm giving people what they want. They want to offend people, OK, they got it. I hope they enjoy the negative attention they so clearly want.

Yes, two beans, I do have respect for believers, even those who believe things that sound silly. I guess my question to you is that what is so offensive about belief that you have to run around mocking believers on the internet?

Doesn't that sound a little sad even to you?

CC

Ps. I would love for any of these people's defenders to start telling me how hilarious Judaism is and how stupid Jews are for believing in a Santa Daddy? Feel free to play on any Jewish Stereotypes you find as hilarious as the Christian ones.

Or are you uncomfortable doing that?

Why is Anti-Semetism hate and what you're doing not?

Chalicechick said...

Ps. Monty Python made, as far as I know, one movie on the Jesus topic and moved on. Not my taste, but it's not really what I'm talkign about.

If mocking Christianity is a constant thing with you, if you devote hours every week to maintaining your anti-Christian website, you regularly do things just to piss Christians off and/or your friends know you as "Mary Magdalen," you haven't moved on.

Ankara said...

Oddly enough, the picture that got this mother in the most trouble, was one of her wearing a goats-head mask while dressed in bondage gear. THATS RIGHT you guessed it, her performance in this case was parodying PAGAN beliefs. when asked "why a goat?" by the judge she said, 'I thought it was funny' The funny thing about your post is you seem to take issue with the mockery of christianity ONLY, yet fail to realize that many of the subgenius church's *beliefs* parody OTHER religious phiosophy. Personally I wont attack you for this, as I think you dont really understand what is going on here. MOST of the *jokes* in the church PARODY CULTS (in fact it's how it all got started) We have a lot MORE fun with them (ex. showing up at a scientology headquarters with signs that say "our UFO cult is better than your UFO cult")IN FACT The church of the subgenius IS a UFO cult (wink wink) The festival that the pictures in question come from are from Xday. (a festival celebrating the end of the world as prophesized to come about on july 5 1998, when the X-ists come to take us away on their pleasure saucers....yes we are STILL awaiting this day ) As for MOVING on...we are ALWAYS moving on, the simple reason being is there is always some NEW loon that has decided that he "has all the answers" and if people would just "follow him" all would be *revealed* The thing I find most IRONIC in your post...is you only see "christian bashing" Frankly, christians havent been funny for quite some time and it really is a very small part of our *faith* I think the most telling part of your rant is, the problem that you might have seeing you faith mocked...totally understandable, but we have moved on, why havent you?

Anonymous said...

At 12:49 PM, June 19, 2006, Chalicechick said...

>Hey, I'm not saying people CAN'T >do this stuff. I'm not trying to >outlaw it.

>I'm saying it is boorish and >stupid and a little bit pathetic.

I find the proposals to ammend the Constitution to outlaw flag burning and gay marrage stupid, boorish and pathetic. Partcularly with soldiers dying in a foreign war. Do you think this issue may have anything to do with religion?


>Ps. I would love for any of these >people's defenders to start >telling me how hilarious Judaism >is and how stupid Jews are for >believing in a Santa Daddy? Feel >free to play on any Jewish >Stereotypes you find as hilarious >as the Christian ones.

>Or are you uncomfortable doing >that?

>Why is Anti-Semetism hate and >what you're doing not?

I thought that Christians just loved to play the martyr even when they are in the majority. Judism is the root religion of Christianity and just as rediculous. But I don't hear any Jews calling for their religious symbols to be mounted on courthouse walls.

Rev. Anachron
CoSG

Chalicechick said...

First off, I don't know enough about Pagans to know when they should be offended.

If you're making fun of them, that's really rude too. Shame on you. Happy now?

(And honestly, don't scientologists have enough problems?)

I mostly know about the Christian bashing because that's what the lady in the custody dispute seemed the most involved in and that was the point made in the article that was the source for this post.

And here is a story about Jews putting up the 10 commandments in the courthouses, so I guess they are your new targets. Try googling some of those sites about how the Jews are running the world economy. I bet they have some great ideas for offensive things to say.

I'm not a Christian and haven't been one for over a decade at this point, I disagree with everything you disagree with, FWIW.

CC

Rev Carter LeBlanc said...

Aww...

Your umbrage is just silly.

Spend any amount of time around Subgenii and you will find them mocking a hell of a lot more than just Christianity. Pretty much any religion, philosiphy, political slant and/or ideology is a valid target.

Why pick on Christians so much? Well, mostly because no one ever gets my jokes about Zoastrians and Yezidis unless I'm in central asia. And since i'm in america i've resigned myself to making fun of what i'm surrounded by. Under the right conditions i've mocked atheiests with equal vigour.

A very clever man once said, "Belief and disbelief are both indicators of cessation of thought."

Chalicechick said...

OK, ok, you all believe in offending people of lots more colors, faiths and creeds than I orginally understood.

I guess that's supposed to make it ok.

Two more questions:

1. Have you ever worn blackface to mock southern gospel music?

2. And, more to the point, if what you're doing isn't bigotry, where is the line between what you're doing and bigotry?

CC

Ankara said...

Jews? sure we make fun of them too..
(although I must admit, it is a LOT more fun making fun of the people who are *scared* of them- and put up conspiracy websites to show us how EVIL the jews are)

a line between what we are doing, and bigotry?
I suppose at this point it would be prudent to introduce the cental point of faith for the Subgenius church. It is from where all *blessings* flow as it were, and everything we are can be linked and tracked back to it.
it is:
FEITCTAJ
this stands for: "F&%$ 'em if they can't take a joke"
If you get it, you do.
If you don't there is really very little else I can do.

Hope this helps.

Rev Slaughter said...

Well, I don't think we're all about offending. Just making some fun. We don't do it equally, we do it as we see fit. And we make fun of ourselves too. We don't take ourselves seriously, I don't think others should unless they're giving us money. I can't believe you haven't gotten on about the money thing. Tell us more about ourselves, we love the free publicity.

Chalicechick said...

Ankara:

I guess the blackface is in, then?

Wow. That sucks.


Rev. Slaughter:

I have no idea about what your church does with its money.

If offending people isn't the point, what's the deal?

CC

Two Beans said...

Yes, let's all just get along. One big happy human family. Where we all get along under our varied gods, no matter how stupid they might be.

If someone cuts you off on the highway, do you respect their wishes to get where ever the hell their going as soon as possible, at the expense of the other motorists on the road?

Me, when I get cut off, I prefer to call the cut-offer a stupid jerk, honk my horn, and flip them off. If I have a passenger with me, I make fun of the idiot for his retarded driving.

Organized religion has been cutting humanity off ever since its creation.

Chalicechick said...

I confess that when I'm cut off in traffic I pretty much let it go.

If I do, he's pissed me off for a second.

It sounds like you let him piss you off for a lot longer.

And I never use "retarded" as an insult.

CC

Two Beans said...

Heh, I use "human" as an insult all the time.

And you need to lighten up.

Chalicechick said...

Somehow, I don't think you pull it off as well as Ian McKellan does.

Call it a hunch.

CC

Rev Carter LeBlanc said...

Blackface? Yea, that's been done. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/fun/devivals/XXDAYad/XX-Day-photos/ArmandGeddyn/kunta-friday.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/fun/devivals/XXDAYad/XX-Day-photos/ArmandGeddyn/ArmandGeddynTN/_kunta-friday.html&h=550&w=293&sz=36&tbnid=qaOtyKV8pToHLM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=69&hl=en&start=56&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfriday%2Bjones%26start%3D40%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26domains%3Dwww.subgenius.com%26sitesearch%3Dwww.subgenius.com (not safe for work)

Blueface? Yea, that too.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/fun/devivals/8XDay/8X-Day_Pics/1-WeiCam/8X_WeiFaves_2/images/8X4021-Kali%2B.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/fun/devivals/8XDay/8X-Day_Pics/1-WeiCam/8X_WeiFaves_2/image-html/8X4021-Kali%2B.html&h=778&w=584&sz=94&tbnid=ba-X05D4fGUV4M:&tbnh=141&tbnw=105&hl=en&start=15&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkali%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26domains%3Dwww.subgenius.com%26sitesearch%3Dwww.subgenius.com
(also not safe for work)

Cheeto suits? Yup.
http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/fun/devivals/xxx-day/post-XXX/XXX-Day-Hilites/_cheetos-man.html
http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/fun/devivals/xxx-day/post-XXX/XXX-Day-Hilites/_cheetos-man2.html
(safe for work)

What's wrong with blackface? Are you saying that pale folks can't dress up as darkskinned folks? Because changing skintone is a key part of the costume.

Shall we turn this into a discussion about the roots of minstrel theater? I'm equipped for that discussion, but that's not what we're dealing with here. (though the segue from religion to race was cleverly performed when the issue of jews came up)

The bottom line is this.

You seem unclear on the difference between bigotry and mockery.

Go look it up in a dictionary.

Joel Monka said...

You may not know much about Pagans, CC, but you do know at least two of them: Robin would qualify under the dictionary definition, and I am a Neopagan- but I am offended when Christians are insulted. I am offended when ANY religion is insulted- Plato said that we will only have justice when those who were not injured feel as outraged as those who were. I pray to all I hold sacred that people like Two Beans lead comfortable, crisis-free lives, for the cynic has no one- supernatural OR mortal- to lean on when they need help.

P.S. You asked why they chose the religions they did to ridicule? For the same reason that PETA protesters throw paint on the furs of little old ladies, but not on the leathers of Hells Angels- it's not any fun bullying people who would fight back. I'll grant them some measure of respect when they publish an anti-Islam comic book.

skutre said...

You said: I'll kid you not, y'all, the Cleveland Free Times' description of these Subgenius events this woman was going to depressed the hell out of me.

As a reporter who has followed the 'Church of the SubGenius' for many years, I think the proper response would be, "F--k 'em if they can't take a joke"

However, this assumes at least an operational understanding of the English Language, and a third grade literacy level, so getting the joke, is probably not in the cards for you;.

Rev Carter LeBlanc said...

"I'll grant them some measure of respect when they publish an anti-Islam comic book."

It's in the works. Actually, we don't do comic books, per se, bit i'm about 15-20% of the way into an arabic translation of "PAMPHLET NUMBER ONE" which is a general summation of our basic theology.

http://www.subgenius.com/pam1/pamphlet.html

Our group contains bikers AND grannies, and i assure you that the grannies are MUCH scarier and FAR more offensive.

fausto said...

Blackface?

Mocking Christians?

Here, kill two birds with one stone.

Chalicechick said...

Joel's post brings up an interesting question:

Do y'all find one another's suffering funny?

I mean, if Jesus' suffering, racism, anti-semetism, etc are all so hilarious, do you ever have someone say:

"Shaving your head wasn't cool, Ralph. My kid's cancer isn't funny..."

CC

Two Beans said...

"Magneto was a good man.
Magneto was a good friend of mine.

You sir, are no Magneto."


References to crap movies aside, what justification do you have for your hypocritical remarks about the Subgenius faith and its practices? Is onestupid religion better than another stupid religion because one stupid religon doesn't critisize the other stupid religion.

News flash, ALL stupid religions critisize every stupid religion that doesn't subscribe to their brand of stupid.

Oh joel, prayer changes nothing, so save your communications with your chosen anthropromorphized imaginary archetect. I'm happy being a mocking synic that stands up instead of having to lean on something that isn't there.

And we (the One True Religion of the Subgenius Church) have mande many a cartoon spanning the gambit of religious icons. We have bikers in the church that mock other bikers. We have neopagane that mock neopagans and bikers. We have skinny geeks that mock bikers, neopagans, and skinny geeks. I'm a biking geek neopagan that mocks biking geek neopagans, I mock my fellow Subgenii. And if it'll get a laugh from myself at least, I'll even mock me.

If you're so easily offended over a joke, you need to pray for enlightenment instead of a crisis-free me. I can't guarentee you'll find it, though. I can however guarentee you Eternal Salvation or Triple Your Money back.

fausto said...

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts....



cc, in case it hadn't yet occurred to you yet, what they're doing isn't religion, it's performance art, and they're performing right now on this thread.

Rev Carter LeBlanc said...

the Kids in the Hall movie "Brain Candy" had a bald kid in a wheelchair who was only known as "Cancer Boy".

Quite funny in context. Quite offensive too.

Some people deal with the horror of day-to-day life by laughing at it. Even the horrible parts.

That's a big part of my religion. Why must you attack my religion?

Chalicechick said...

I agree that it is human nature to be critical of one another. But whether you consider this an unpleasant facet of human nature we should work against or something we should embrace is up to you. I tend to think the first. I really do try to be tolerant of lots of different kinds of beliefs.

I don't know that I'm right, after all, and I think I'm always going to be learning new things.

Kind of hard to do that when you've decided everyone else in the world is only valuable as material.


CC

Chalicechick said...

Fausto,

I'd gathered as much, but I'm curious how deep it goes.


Carter,

If a guy's kid did get Cancer and he no longer found cancer funny, would you have to excommunicate him?

Matt said...

"And I suppose believing in a mythical Santa Daddy in the sky for the past few thousand years or whatever is a grownup act."

You are presuming we believe in such a God - and that we all take the classic theist perspective.

"You know, I heard if you don't believe in the mythical Santa Daddy in the sky, the mythical Santa Daddy will spank you then send you into the middle of the earth where there's lakes of fire and a really mean stranger that won't offer you candy, only more spankings."

You are presuming we believe in such things as hell being an eternal torture chamber.

Indeed, it appears that your understanding of Christianity or any other monotheist religion is based mainly on stereotypes and limited knowledge.

Not all Christians - and their Jewish, Muslim, Hindu contemporaries - believe in a "Santa Daddy" God or the traditional concept of sin / punishment.

I suggest you read more and you may come to realise there are a diversity of opinions within Christianity about God, hell, punishment etc.

I doubt however, that you will open your mind and investigate such things. After all, why spoil the fun of mindless hate and the self-satisfaction of bathing in your own self-righteousness?

Rev Carter LeBlanc said...

Nope. We don't excommunicate people in The CotSG. We encourage breakaway sects (known as clenches).

In fact, up until a subgenius schisms beyond the pale of orthodoxy they're considered "bobbies" i.e. worthless sycophants who are only tolerated because they've paid their $30.

Ideally we should have more sects than members, all visciously warring with each other and everyone else.

The only problem is that many of us get along quite well.

You should join us, and then form your own clench that is opposed to mockery and perversion. You might have trouble convincing other SubGs to join you, but we'd still love it if you came and partied with us.

Two Beans said...

"But whether you consider this an unpleasant facet of human nature we should work against or something we should embrace is up to you. I tend to think the first. I really do try to be tolerant of lots of different kinds of beliefs."

You don't get it, do you.

The ONLY thing we embrace iss "Bob". The obly thing TO embrace is "Bob".

"I don't know that I'm right, after all, and I think I'm always going to be learning new things."

Starting when?

"Kind of hard to do that when you've decided everyone else in the world is only valuable as material."

I didn't decide that, JHVH-1 did. Then JHVH-1 told "Bob", and "bob" told Rev. Stang, who then told it to me for thirty dollars.

And Subgenii don't "get" cancer, we "aquire" cancer and use it to our advantage as best we can.

Disappointed atheist said...

From a distance, back in college, I vaguely thought the Church of the Subgenius might be funny or at least harmless fun. Now that I've had a taste of a few Subgenii through this thread, it's amazing how juvenile and narcissistic it all is.

Anonymous said...

Tell me, are you brave enough to mock a Christian, Jewish Sikh or Muslim believer to their face?

Or is your little game of religion baiting limited to the safety of a keyboard?

Chalicechick said...

I have to say that I'm a little pleased that, once on the thread and once in an email to me, people have referred to getting one's religion discussed on theChaliceblog as "publicity."

Y'all flatter.

CC
who does appreciate Carter's invitation, but doesn't have an extra thirty dollars.

Two Beans said...

My opinions of the christianity meme are usually derived from the majority of its subscribers, the little book they all read, the iconography they display, and the words coming out from their leaders.

I suppose that there's a small fraction of the christians that don't believe in the blue-eyed old man in the clouds that's going to send you to your room if you don't eat your supper, but I usually don't run into them much.As a result my blasphemous remarks aren't so much directed at them, only the perposly blinded fools that like to shove their rhetoric into the public face everytime they get to.

And I chose to shove it back.

We have a saying in the Church of the Subgenius. "Its not Jesus we have a problem with, its his fucking fan club we can't stand."

Chalicechick said...

I was raised liberal presybterian.

My folks told me that bible stories were metaphors, Jesus wanted us to help the poor and that people of all faiths could get into heaven as long as they lead good lives. They are pro-choice and homosexuality doesn't phase them.

I still didn't believe, but a background like that makes it hard to get too terribly worked up over Christianity.

There are some nice folks over at the UCC.

CC

Rev Carter LeBlanc said...

Anonomous asked "Tell me, are you brave enough to mock a Christian, Jewish Sikh or Muslim believer to their face?"

That's a rather speculative question. Why not ask "Have you...?"

To which i would answer: Yes.

I've mocked Christians and Muslims. I've never met a Jewish Sikh, but the idea seems rife with amusing possibilities.

The best way to mock someone's religion is to be funny enough to make them laugh. The key to doing that is to say something that is true, clever, or absurd. Then, because they laughed at the joke, you're pretty safe.

Taking the target's mindset and setting into account is an essential part of this.

Mean funny is easier than clever funny so you tend to see a lot more of it.

fausto said...

I'd gathered as much, but I'm curious how deep it goes.

As deep as any other similar class clown sort of behavior, is my guess -- it lasts until it no longer draws a reaction, or until the performer is no longer awed by the genius and sophistication of his own work.

If you've ever seen the "Ripped My Pants" episode of Spongebob Squarepants, you know the dynamic.

Dave T said...

It seems odd that someone would spend so much time mocking and insulting someone else. In fact not even odd, just a bit sad.

Is the Church of the Sub-Genius really just a lonely hearts club?!

Anonymous said...

"I have to say that I'm a little pleased that, once on the thread and once in an email to me, people have referred to getting one's religion discussed on theChaliceblog as "publicity.""

providing publicity or feeding (boring) attention seekers???

Chalicechick said...

Don't hate the playa, Anonymous. Hate the game.

CC

Rev Torin Hadjii said...

I have to say that in all my time in the CotSG the one thing that I have found is that we are so diverse and in our ideas and viewpoints. I have loved being there for the arguements over anything, for these discussions enliven the mind and serve mankind. Yes I don't see the point in dressing nicely once a week and heading off to a building to pay homage to "Our father who art in Heaven" so maybe I mock those who do, but at the same time I know that from my religion of choice I get all I need, which is slack. For those of you that don't know the joy of living your days without a care in the world I feel sorry for you, because no matter what happens in this world, my slackfulness and the tilt of the luck plane will see me through to the Hallowed Halls of the afterlife, where I might be remade to better serve "Bob" in his infinite wisdom. I see that some people have a problem with mockery and debauchery, probably because they are so afraid what would happen if they allowed themselves to engage in it. If you want to see how deep the rabbit hole will go then just visit the Subgenius at a devival and don't turn down the frop when it is passed your way. I have known for quite a long time that I was some sort of mutant, and if it wasn't for the Church of the Subgenius I'd have no place at all.

"Praise Bob"
Fnord!
Snootchie Bootchies
Reverend Pater RP Jord Torin Hadjii Solundab the Ridiculously Prolonged

Pope Null said...

I'd venture a guess that the fundamental problem a Discordian would have with Christianity is that it leads to this kind of thinking:

My argument is that Discordianism strikes me as a parody of Catholicism.
I can only think of things in relation to what I already know

What the fuck is up with that?
Ask, find an answer, and then judge.

Since it is what you expect from us, do all of the criticisms YOU make eminate from a deep-seated hatred of opposing viewpoints?

Or maybe you are just ignorant.

Carefull who you belittle - Occam's Razor can cut your throat.

Rev. Slaughter said...

Dave T Said: It seems odd that someone would spend so much time mocking and insulting someone else. In fact not even odd, just a bit sad.

Is the Church of the Sub-Genius (sic) really just a lonely hearts club?!


It can be. It is, really, what you make of it. Much like any other church or religion.

It seems odd to me that someone would form such a strong emotional opinion based on a damning blogspot post and its responses.

But, anyways...ChaliceChick:

Most people take some kind of offense to the "for-profit" nature of the SubGenius Church. We pay our taxes!

How deep does it go? How deep can any religion go? "Bob" is my religion. Though it may appear as a joke, that is no reason to discount it from being a religion, namely mine. I don't know if other SubGeniuses think it's their religion, I don't really care if I do. I schizm, sure, but "Bob" is always there to be killed. Nothing quite like it.

As for the bigotry charges, we're only allowed to kill "Bob" - who could be anyone who claims to have all the answers. If it IS "Bob" then he or she will never die, but if they do die then they deserve it and we shouldn't feel too bad about having one less nutjob ruining the world for the rest of us.

I don't have much of a qualm with any other religion either, like you. I think they can be every bit as absurd as mine, but I don't think that they like to have that pointed out, so they get "offended". I don't think about mocking them very much because they're all going to fry by my saucer-beam. So why waste my time?

Oh, yeah, the whole joke thing's a great cover. But we really ARE nothing more than your garden variety UFO Sex-Death Cult. Since secrecy arouses suspicion, we hide it all in plain sight and nobody takes us seriously (especially most of our followers, thank JHBH-1)

Kim said...

It sounds about like any other religion to me.

May I submit that people hate religions because the religions let them down? They set themselves up as (and people expect them to offer) "the answer" and then don't deliver. Maybe if we didn't have such high expectations, we wouldn't be disillusioned.

alkali said...

CC's good point -- i.e., "[I]f what you're doing isn't bigotry, where is the line between what you're doing and bigotry?" -- seems to have been ignored, other than to assert that mockery doesn't necessarily entail bigotry (true, but obvious).

The derision of traditional Christian dogma and practice from two beans, rev torin, etc. is misplaced on a UU blog. You might as well complain to the Lutherans that you don't see what the big deal is about the Pope.

So far as I can tell, the assertion that the SubGenius thing is a religion amounts to a pretty juvenile form of logic-chopping: "How can you be sure that my knitting circle, or this block of wood isn't a religion?" I'm not sure that argument is quite as impressive as you think it is, but good luck with that.

Chalicechick said...

A few comments:

Pope, I'm not sure why your religion would want to use so much Catholic Terminology if you didn't want people to be reminded of Catholicism. If I were to change my name to Daffodill and bitch at everyone who asked about flowers for only thinking of things in relation to what they already know, that would be silly of me, wouldn't it?

I am really amused at how disappointed everyone seems to be that I don't care that you're for profit. That's not how I would run a religion, but I'm not you.

Also, I am saddened that so many people seem to see it as a black-and-white, "it's the Southern Baptists or this" dynamic.

And for a group SO critical of every other religion, y'all are a pretty touchy bunch when somebody says something against your own. Even the people who claimed that they saw themselves with a sense of humor had very little patience. If you can't take a little difficulty about yourselves without resulting to this sort of collective undie-buncherie, you do really think you should be dishing it out?

CC

Rev Carter LeBlanc said...

The CC posits: "And for a group SO critical of every other religion, y'all are a pretty touchy bunch when somebody says something against your own."

I feel that this statement alone is irrefutable proof that we ARE a religion.

And in response to alkali's doubts regarding the religous legitimacy of the church of the subgenius i refer to Dr. Irving Hexham, a respected cultural anthropologist who has spent a LOT of time studying the anthropology of religion.

A religion has three basic parts:

1.Doctrine (establishes our place in the universe)

2.Congregation (establishes moral and normative ethics)

3.Ritual (establishes experiential and motivational praxis)

The church of the subgenius has all three, and by pretty much any accepted anthropological, sociological and psychological standards qualifies as a religion.

As far as restating the question of "How is it different from bigotry?"

Well...

It IS bigotry, but it's a nice broadly spread-out equal-hate-for-all despite their race, creed, sex, political affiliation, or proclivity.

And we don't restrict ourselves to humans, either. We hate dolphins, ponys, cats, dogs, rodents, marsupial, mammals in general, vertibrates, agnathates, invertibrates, unicellular creatures, blue-green algae, basidiomites, viruses, effing lichens, grey aliens, tulpas, djinns, angels, demons, unicorns, inanimate objects...you get the idea.

But...

You know what we really hate?

HEAT-VENT WORMS!

Those bastards don't even derive their sustanace from their own bloody SUN!!!

(but we like Yetis)

Ankara said...

CC said: And for a group SO critical of every other religion, y'all are a pretty touchy bunch when somebody says something against your own. Even the people who claimed that they saw themselves with a sense of humor had very little patience. If you can't take a little difficulty about yourselves without resulting to this sort of collective undie-buncherie, you do really think you should be dishing it out?

Weeee!! boy I was waiting for that!
Of COURSE we should be dishing it out
for we have pulled the "wool over our own eyes" (see pamphlet one) also we are the kind of people that "are looking for an inherently bogus religion that will condone superior degeneracy and yet tell you that you are "above" everyone else" (pamphlet1)
truth be told I am getting the idea that you are starting to understand...I CAN FEEL IT DEAR FRIEND...YOU ARE SO CLOSE TO THE TRUTH!! REPENT...QUIT YOUR JOB...SLACK OFF!!
oh and for those interested
your starting point is here:
http://www.subgenius.com/slaq.htm
(we dont have one of the largest sites on the net for nuthin)

Chalicechick said...

I'm tempted to follow that link, but I won't. Because, frankly, I've never run across an unhappier-sounding group of people.

(I'm sure some of you are to varying degrees kidding. But still...)

CC

Rev Carter LeBlanc said...

Definitely a good impulse, CC.

Under no circumstances should you ever throw me into the briar patch.

Ever.

I mean it.

Ankara said...

CC said: I'm tempted to follow that link, but I won't. Because, frankly, I've never run across an unhappier-sounding group of people.


OH NO!! YOU WERE SO CLOSE!!
actually it's only a page with many words on it, you can go there or not the words cant hurt you, (I wouldnt post a link to something unpleasant just to troll you, I just wouldnt, not when I was thought you wanted to understand)
as to our emotional state:
I think I can safely call it
GLEEFUL!!
We (well I anyway) have had a wonderful time in your blog today
(and in our newgroup alt.slack and IRC where your blog was first reported)
and you have been a good sport
(up to the point where you lacked
understanding of us OR our point)
I think the poster *fausto* came closest to getting it, out of the people here I dont know.
Anyway, it's been fun, the link above
remains (remember...the unexamined life and all that)
Thanks

Ankara

Rev Slaughter said...

CC Sez:

I'm tempted to follow that link, but I won't.
Sure, why get any outside information other than the opinion you've already formed?

Sure, Rev. Magdalen hates Christianity = that's why she and her family have been attending a presbyterian church for over a year! Good thing she doesn't have her kid! Conbo's WAY better off in that trailer park!

The Church of the SubGenius is one of the most hate-filled religions ever! Oh, wait, sorry, we're not even a REAL RELIGION according to you. ALL WE DO IS MOCK! Sure. Just remember when its Reverends tell you that that's not the case, just ignore THOSE uncultured swine! REMEMBER, it's not a religion in the first place, so you denigrating their religion (oooops!) is OK while their making fun (remember FUN?) of some silly movie, Heaven's Gate, and Scientology is a TOTAL ACT OF HATE. Shun, shun!

Oh, yeah, and Discordianism is ONLY a parody of Catholosism! Never mind it has THOUSANDS of direct references to DAOISM and only uses one Catholic term (nevermind that Anglicanism has a similar position, nobody calls THEM a "parody" of Catholicism because it's called something different!)

No no no no no...we SubGeniuses are just plain damn IMMORAL!

Well, CC, if YOU and your norm-worm hippie scum jackbooted peace, love, and zombie "friends" think we're immoral or "sad" or "pathetic" than BY GOD'S FARTS WE'RE DOING OUR JOB! WE CANNOT HELP WHAT WE DO, JHBHY-1 COMMANDS IT SO! YES, YES, WE MUST YET WE CANNOT! THAT IS WHERE "BOB" COMES IN! HAIL THE SAUCERS, B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B...

Chalicechick said...

Rev Carter, that was the first thing that actually made me laugh this whole conversation.

CC

Rev Slaughter said...

If you paid thirty dollars to the Divine Wallet, then you would have the power to laugh at anything, for any reason, at any time! Send away for salvation today!

skutre said...

Perhaps you've noticed that the Church of the Subgenius, is not a JOKE..

But you are definitly a joke, and that's why the Church of the Subgenius wants you.

Please join us at alt.slack so we can make fun of your personal parts, and other intelligent conversation.

Pope Null said...

The argument is to whether or not the books belong in the theology section. Your crisisicm is that they do not, because they only critique religion. Does that not sound like theology? Does the adamant support of the 'illuminated' support or disprove your supposition that Discordianism is NOT a school of thought directed at the nature of divinity?
Is it not the nature of one with faith to question the beliefs of others?

The only point here that you have conclusively made is that of your own ignorance.

Anonymous said...

"If "Hank the Angry Drunken Dwarf" ran for president to highlight the absurdity of the American political system, then put out a book about politics, I wouldn't put it in the politics section. So why would I put a book produced by paraody religion in "theology?""


I see, where the problem lies, you don´t understand politics also.

So, if I highlight the absurdity of the american political system with a five hundred pages brick, it is to be put on "politics" section, but if I do it in an imaginative way and mixed with "fun" it is to be put apart in the "humor" section. Deactivated, I would say.


I understand your point clearly: it just can´t be "serious" if it is funny.

May be someone is misinterpreting "boring" as "serious".

Besides, Discordianism is a religion as long as it considers itself a religion.

Except on tuesdays, when we consider it a stuffed duck.

Have a weird day.

And then come back here and tell us :)

Anonymous said...

chalicechick said:

I guess it is important to me that the concept "religion" means something. I'm willing to accept sincere believers of all types, but people who don't have sincere belief and feel like they have to mock those who do depress me.

Ladyfluffybunny says:

I am so glad you are willing to accept sincere believers of all types (does that include pagans and wiccans I have to wonder?) that gives me a nice, fuzzy feeling inside.

But have you considered that perhaps...just perhaps...that the Church of the Subgenius's own true and very "sincere" belief is the mocking of anyone or anything that they feel takes itself waaaay too seriously? Just a thought to ponder.

And I have to say, that if THAT is what depresses you, then you really haven't been paying attention to the news stations lately have you hun?

Chalicechick said...

Yes, yes, the whole world takes itself too seriously, except for you guys. The fact that you all get huffy and behave like people who take themselves too seriously when you yourselves are insulted is part of the joke. I've been told upthread.

Also, one of my pagan friends mentioned he was a pagan and that a mutual friend of ours was a pagan upthread, so I am assuming that you meant that bit about pagans as an editorial comment on the absurdity of web discussions. I mean, since you guys are all so much smarter than the rest of us, it's not possible you missed that, so it must be part of the eternal jest you have with the world.

Yeah.

CC

Anonymous said...

Lady Fluffy Bunny says:

What is with all of your "you guys" comments?

Are you assuming I am a pagan? Or a subgenius? That is a pretty big leap to make from just one comment if you ask me.

And I am certainly not getting all huffy....first of all you are not worth getting all huffy over. And second, if I was, believe you me, there would be no doubt to the issue at all.

You are simply a form of amusement for me right as I find your high and mighty attitude and assumption about things you clearly know nothing about to be terribly amusing.

Chalicechick said...

LFB,

You have named yourself after a common pagan insult.

And you did hunt up a SubGenius conversation in a rather obscure corner of the internet, so yes, I did assume you were one or the other.

Which is a lot more justification than you had for assuming that my tolerance for other kinds of belief didn't include pagans.

CC

Ps. In case you ask because you're looking, I don't see you fitting in well with at least the Pagans I know. But as far as I can tell you'd make a great SubGenius.

PPs.:

Huff·y
adj. huff·i·er, huff·i·est

1. Easily offended; touchy.
2. Irritated or annoyed; indignant.
3. Arrogant; haughty.



Walks. Talks. Quacks.

Tagone said...

I think, that in any religion, whether it is a parody religion or not the important thing is that it makes people happy.

Christianity obviously makes Christians happy and for that it's good.

Discordianism makes Discordians happy and for that it's equally good.

Both things cause happiness so both of them are therefore good and I believe that if the other religion makes you unhappy it's best just to completely ignore them. Then if either a Christian insults Discordian beliefs, or a Discordian insults Christian beliefs both sides are ignoring the other so nobody cares and everyone is happy.

slö said...

ramen
-><-
beware of the Flying N00dles

all religions are build on fantasy/vision. it's not a disgrace.

freayfroggies

greetings from antwerp

drjon said...

Hi There!

You mention "Discordian books", not "Discordian book", in your post. I was wondering what the titles were.

Cheers!