Sunday, August 23, 2009

When I first started following UUism online...

One constantly heard about how badly theists were treated in UU congregations. These days, you really don't hear about it as much any more. I'm a theist, of a sort, and a political moderate, of a sort, and my politics are offended far more often than my faith is.

I don't think I'm alone. Indeed, even at the time, I liked to figure out which churches the complaining theists were attending and I often found that the churches were having theist-friendly sermons and adult ed classes. One time a woman complained that her church had denied her the right to throw a Christmas pageant because they hated Christianity and theists. When she had left the church and was still complaining about it a year later, I checked back. The following year they did have a Christmas pageant. I'm fairly certain that while there are some very humanist churches where theists would feel less comfortable, there are an equal amount or greater number of theistic churches where atheists feel less comfortable and the majority are in the middle where neither theists nor humanists get exactly what they want but neither is completely overshadowed either. My church has been 50/50 for a long time and my understanding is that it's pretty common for a church to be something close to that.

Anyway, back when I was constantly having this conversation, I would sometimes link to something like this and point out that it still sucks in many ways to be an atheist in America, so if atheists are a little snotty sometimes it return, that's probably not the end of the world.

Out of habit, I'm doing it again. Giving potential adoptive parents this much grief just because they are atheists? REALLY New Jersey?

CC


CLARIFICATION: As Tom noted in the comments, this story is actually a few decades old, something I didn't notice and the person who sent the story to me didn't notice either I'm guessing. Joel also notes that this stuff is still happening to Pagans.

15 comments:

Tom said...

The news story you cite is from Dec. 7, 1970. You will be pleased to know that on July 1, 1971 the New Jersey Supreme Court unanimously overruled Judge Camarata. My favorite part of the opinion is the statement that the questions Camarata asked were no business of any "terrestrial judge"

The only thing I don't get is the reference to the first adoptee being 31 years old. An infant in 1967, he would only have become 31 in 2008. That suggests that the article was written recently, not in 1970. But certainly the famous court ruling was in 1971.

Tom said...

Okay, the first kid would have been 31 in 1998, not 2008. I still don't get it. Maybe he was 31 months in 1970.

kimc said...

i was going to send a copy of that article about the denied adoption out to my email group, until I noticed the date on it is Dec. 7, 1970.

hafidha sofia said...

Pretty unbelievable ... it was overturned the following year, but it is still pretty sad. Some of the conversation during the case is worth reading here.

Joel Monka said...

Atheists aren't singled out as targets of religious bigotry by the courts and the child welfare types- any non-Christian is at risk in many communities. Here in Indianapolis, a judge wrote into the divorce decree of a Wiccan couple that they may not raise their child Wiccan, nor even allow him to witness any Wiccan practices- and it took over a year to get the decree overturned. And that was in 2005

Robin Edgar said...

"One constantly heard about how badly theists were treated in UU congregations. These days, you really don't hear about it as much any more."

You may not hear about it as much but that does not mean that theists are not badly treated by intolerant atheists in U*U "churches". In fact I have seen some comparatively recent comments about pagans and Christians being badly treated by "Humanist" U*Us in U*U churches.

"One time a woman complained that her church had denied her the right to throw a Christmas pageant because they hated Christianity and theists. When she had left the church and was still complaining about it a year later, I checked back. The following year they did have a Christmas pageant."

Where's *your* hard evidence of that CC, or is this just hearsay? I certainly don't recall you saying anything about the apparently "Humanist" dominated church in question having a Christmas pageant but, even if they did, it in no way means that they had not mistreated the person because they believed in Jesus and/or God. How Christian oriented was this alleged Christmas service?

It may well still suck in many ways to be an atheist in America, but that is no excuse for atheists to get a little snotty (or even behave in ways that go well beyond just being a little snotty) toward theist U*Us in U*U churches. AFAIAC the ongoing snottiness of intolerant atheist Humanist U*Us towards Christian oriented people and other theists is a major contributing factor to U*Uism being The Tiny Declining Fringe Religion™ and some U*U Humanists, including one prominent Humanist U*U minister happen to agree with me on that point. The snottiness of intolerant atheist U*Us may well be the end of the U*U World if U*Us continue to abjectly fail and obstinately refuse to responsibly acknowledge this "major problem" of the U*Us and work to correct this shituation.

Chalicechick said...

My guess is that the information that the church had a Christmas pagent in like 2002 is now gone. I linked to it at the time, I'm sorry you don't remember. If you like, I will link to their current pageant this Christmas.

And I'm not sure how one has a pagent about the birth of Christ without having it be fairly Christian. I would think a secular Christmas pageant would involve Santa Claus.

And you still need to look up what "hearsay" actually means before accusing me of it. If I personally witnessed the website advertising a Christmas pageant and asking for volutneers to help put together the stable and make angel costumes, then no court of law would deny me the right to say that's what I saw on hearsay grounds. Which is not to say that if you use the term correctly I'm going to agree to follow the rules of courtroom evidence on my own blog.

I don't think anyone's snottiness is optimal, I just don't see it as the big deal that other people do, even when it is directed against me. And I certainly don't see why snotty atheists is a bigger problem than snotty theists, snotty pagans, snotty anyone. I just think we should try to be nice to each other and being snotty as a response to someone else's percieved snottiness is only putting more snottiness into the world.

CC

hafidha sofia said...

I'm an atheist, but most people I interact with at my church don't know it. I don't broadcast it.

But earlier this year I was very tempted to say something during a cafe conversation about putting together a search committee team.

Search committee members are supposed to have made a spiritual commitment to UUism and the church, so we were discussing that, and what did it mean, whether it would be measured, etc. Someone mentioned atheists as part of a list of spiritual beliefs/identities. And the aforementioned woman piped up, "An ATHEIST?! At THIS church? I would hope NOT!" Later she muttered, "Why would an atheist even come here?"

I still regret not saying anything, but I didn't want to go off on her.

Comrade Kevin said...

I hold absolutely no ill will to atheists, though the militant anti-theists who are snotty do tend to wear on me considerably.

I've seen UU congregations be much less tolerant of self-proclaimed Christians than any atheist present.

Chalicechick said...

Kevin,

I don't doubt that some congregations are like that, though UU Christian congregants and ministers are plenty common in other churches.

But I don't think that the issue is as widespread as it used to be. And I think there are congregations where atheists are the ones who get guff rather than Christians.

CC

Robin Edgar said...

"And I think there are congregations where atheists are the ones who get guff rather than Christians."

That may be so CC but I expect that there are fewer of them and that the "guff" is rather less snotty, to say nothing of in your face rude. . . than what many U*U atheists quite regularly dish out to theists.

Hafidha Sofia's example of an insensitive remark made about atheists in an apparently theist dominated church is the first I have heard of that kind of thing and I find it incredibly ironic because it so closely parallels what a lot of insensitive atheists have said about theists. Just remove the 'A' from Atheist -

"An THEIST?! At THIS church? I would hope NOT!" Later she muttered, "Why would a theist even come here?"

I take note of Hafidha saying, "I still regret not saying anything, but I didn't want to go off on her."

U*U theists get the same kind of crap and far worse in many U*U "churches" but it is rare for them to "go off" on the insensitive (or worse) atheists when they make such remarks. What does happen is that a good number of theists just quietly "move on" out the revolving door of The Church Of The Revolving Door and that is one of the main reasons why The U*U Movement™ is currently also known as The Tiny Declining Fringe Religion™. How many theists want to go to a "church" where snotty atheists can verbally defecate all over them with impunity?

Chalicechick said...

(((How many theists want to go to a "church" where snotty atheists can verbally defecate all over them with impunity?)))

If I ever find a UU church like that, I will let you know. Personally, the people who have been snotty about theists OR atheists in the churches I've been to have been quickly argued with and told to cut it out. (Most of them have been teenagers, too, so sometimes I'm the one telling them to cut it out.)

The biggest drubbing of theists I've ever seen personally in a UU church was an atheist who came to speak at a friend's church and said rude things about Christianity. I wanted to argue with him about what he had said but had to get in line as six other people were trying to point out the unfairness in what he had said.

This speaker has never been invited back to this church, which is a humanist one by any measure.

(((Hafidha Sofia's example of an insensitive remark made about atheists in an apparently theist dominated church is the first I have heard of that kind of thing)))

I find that bizarre given the number of times beliefnet atheists wanted to talk about "why would an atheist come to church anyway?" coming up at their churches in a rude fashion. I remember several threads on the topic.

Also how some beliefnet folks would rant that because "Theology" game from the Greek meaning "Discussion of the Gods," atheists couldn't possibly have a theology.

As far as I can tell, snottiness against atheists is just as common and just as rude as snottiness against theists these days. And of course, some people inspire more snottiness than other people.

Which is still not to say that is particularly common most places. At this point, a large percentage of the examples of snottiness I hear about are at least a few years if not many years old.

CC

Chalicechick said...

And then there is this entire conversation whether an atheist can ever feel like she belongs in a UU church.

CC

PG said...

Given what a crappy attitude most Americans have toward atheists, I think it's understandable that some of them have a chip on their shoulders and will feel over-protective of any refuge they can find away from the majority attitude, just as some gay people will take that attitude toward their refuges (e.g. wanting to exclude "breeders" from certain clubs and organizations). (And polls indicate we'll have a gay president before we have an atheist one -- almost half the country says atheism would disqualify a candidate from getting their vote.)

Mystical Seeker said...

I wonder whether it makes sense to lump all "theists" together. My impression (and maybe I'm wrong about this, so I will stand corrected if that is not the case) is that many pagans are often not very fond of Christianity and probably would not like to be lumped together with them.

What attracted me to UUism when I was attending UU churches back in the late 1980s and early 1990s was its ostensible respect for and tolerance of multiple faiths, a place where Buddhism and Baha'i and Christianity and Judaism could all be discussed. My impression is that in practice a lot of humanist UUs were refugees from conservative Christianity and they were willing to listen to Buddhism or Baha'i being talked about by their minister during the sermon but weren't too crazy about hearing about Christianity. So it seemed like the objection of "theism" was really not so broad but rather very specifically aimed at a particular kind of theism. That being said, in general, I am having a hard time understanding why anyone would be attracted to UUism if they couldn't bear to hear about religion at all.

The UU church that I attended in Colorado back in the late 80s definitely had its contingent of people who didn't like to hear about Christianity. And yet that same church had an evening service involving the singing of Christmas carols. Then again, Christmas is both a secular holiday and a religious one, so I'm not sure if the existence of such a service really means anything.