To everyone who told me at some point during my discussion of the Gates incident that Gates got what he deserved for disobeying a police officer and treating him disrespectfully. I'd be interested in your take on this situation.
Given that we don't know exactly what the soldiers did in the alleyway, is what happened here in some way justified because public urination is a public nuisance? If the soldiers had told the cop to go to hell and been arrested, do you think that would have been a just result?
To be the idea that the police are public servants and can't reasonably expect to be treated much better than cab drivers or garbage collectors is a given, so I'm trying to get my head around the idea that police deserve some special deference and am curious about what limits people perceive that deference to have.
CC
who doesn't know the race of anybody involved, FWIW, but would guess that they are all white given the last names of the parties involved and that it happened in Wisconsin, one of the whiter states in the union.
14 comments:
Disturbing. But at least they're still alive. Look up James Chasse, who was beaten to death by three police officers in Portland after he was reportedly caught urinating on a wall in the swanky part of downtown Portland.
I guess his crime was to run. Oh, and to have "schizophrenia."
Back in the 1980s when I was a student at Eastern Illinois University, the Charleston {IL) police somehow thought it appropriate to break the leg of a woman they caught urinating in an alley after the bars closed.
Maybe the problem is one of power. It tends to get people carried away with it. When one has a little power, one tends to try to take more of it. At least some people do. Perhaps power people are not the best cops?
Well, for starters, let me clarify that I never said Gates "deserved" to be treated as he was -- only that I could understand why an officer might arrest someone who was uncooperative and belligerent.
With that out of the way ... however the Guardsmen behaved, it does not justify the behavior of the officers, and they should have all been fired.
Even assuming that the Guardsmen behaved belligerently, the most the officers should have been able to do was detain them. I've seen where cops will cuff a loud drunk, wait for a friend of the drunk to arrive, then give them both a stern lecture and send them on their way.
Unfortunately, not every officer takes seriously the fact that the reason they are given such power is to use it responsibly to serve the public. As one of my police chums remarked, too many cops are nothing more than bullies with a badge -- and they give all police a bad name.
Makes me think that police academies should not only improve their training, but perhaps even employ psychological screening for potential candidates.
I know you didn't say he got what he deserved*, Desmond, but you gave a really good answer.
Of course, I could just think so because I agree with it. :)
CC
*Again, several other people did.
I think it comes down to the fact that people react out of fear, believing that police officers are necessary forces that clean up their messes, keep criminals out of their backyards, and perform basic tasks they themselves do not want to do.
One speaks badly about police and someone immediately adds something to the effect that "Everyone is critical of the police until you need them." And they also speak to our squeamishness about real violence unless it is deemed justified---we're fine with in in the abstract or in media, but we'd sooner lose an arm than have it happen to us.
"Makes me think that police academies should not only improve their training, but perhaps even employ psychological screening for potential candidates."
I thought they already did this? I remember when I was filling out the application to become one I had to agree to submit to a psych test or eval.
Maybe it depends on the location?
Here in Chicago, the police are scary. They are not there to protect us. They are there to make sure that the machine is not disturbed. Take it from our own King Daley I.
The policeman isn't there to create disorder; the policeman is there to preserve disorder.
Richard J. Daley 1968
"To everyone who told me at some point during my discussion of the Gates incident that Gates got what he deserved for disobeying a police officer and treating him disrespectfully. I'd be interested in your take on this situation."
That's a fine case of comparing apples to oranges CC. In any case I do not believe that I or anyone else actually said or even implied that "Gates got what he deserved for disobeying a police officer and treating him disrespectfully." What *some* people said is that Gates' arrest on disorderly conduct charges may well have been provoked by his actual disorderly conduct and that *anyone* who gets shirty with the police can expect to be handed a ticket whether it is justified or not. Gates was treated with kid gloves as far as I can see whereas these two guardsmen were clearly treated in a demeaning and abusive manner if the reoprt is true.
Scott, at 1:05 PM, July 22, 2009, on CC's first post about the Gates matter:
I've got zero sympathy for Mr. Gates. If he immediately copped an attitude with the police - and I hope you'll forgive the unintentional pun - I don't care if you're white, black, red, yellow, gray, or purple with green polka dots; I don't care if you come from the highest-class aristocracy or the bluest of blue-collar families - you deserve the treatment you get from the police if you act like "a dick," no matter what you look like or where you come from.
If that's not saying, "Gates got what he deserved for disobeying a police officer and treating him disrespectfully," what DOES it mean?
Oh, and Robin at 2:14 PM, July 23, 2009 on that same thread:
"The fact that he behaved like an arrogant self-important jerk, and appears not to have changed his tune much, does nothing to generate sympathy for him. If Gates *had* been reasonably civil and respectful and cooperative towards the police and was none-the-less completely unjustifiably arrested then I doubt many people would think that he brought it on himself. Gates has sown a whole lot of race-baiting wind that began before he was arrested, and he just might end up reaping a whirlwind."
Yup, no implication here that Gates deserved what he got.
And then there was Bill Baar saying that the tapes of the incident would show that Gates was "sounding like a maniac" and this would justify the arrest. Except the tapes actually indicated that Gates was quiet enough that what he was saying couldn't be articulated over the tape, while Sgt. Crowley's words came through clearly.
It's not a good idea to try to rewrite the history of what happened in blog comments when those comments are still easily available.
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