tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post7021989969137693179..comments2023-10-24T05:49:04.269-04:00Comments on The Chaliceblog: LinguistFriend: COLLATERAL DAMAGEChalicechickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-17655793781994802632009-07-21T20:06:49.556-04:002009-07-21T20:06:49.556-04:00CC, thank you for quietly correcting my absent-min...CC, thank you for quietly correcting my absent-minded terminology to "public defender"<br />rather than "civil defender". As you say, there is no doubt that at every stage of my son's progress, his active cooperation was crucial, both in working with the public defender, and in the rehab center. Overlapping the latter stage, the drug-rehabilitation aspect of AA is not well known, but includes a well-designed system of mentorship to provide <br />both supervision for those early in the program, and a responsible mentor role for those more advanced in the program.LinguistFriendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02695715246663202212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-81211744466480684252009-07-21T17:51:18.894-04:002009-07-21T17:51:18.894-04:00Your brothers' friends are supportive too CC. ...Your brothers' friends are supportive too CC. They are just *supportive* in a rather dysfunctional way. . . Much like how "less than excellent" U*U ministers are *supported* aka enabled by their professional colleagues and other U*Us when they behave badly. . .<br /><br />To put it another way, if a U*U minister announced that she was going to anally impale a U.S. senator on the Statue of Liberty's torch, *my* friends would be horrified and try to talk her out of it. As far as I've ever seen <a href="http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2009/02/are-rev-beth-miller-and-rev-dr-tracey.html" rel="nofollow">Rev. Victoria Weinstein's friends</a> encourage behavior like that. . . . So it doesn't surprise me that she always ends up back on The Emereson Avenger's U*U World famous "Eat Your Words Diet".Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-21966130572876696232009-07-21T17:00:26.367-04:002009-07-21T17:00:26.367-04:00I am so happy for your brother, Hafidha. I wish ev...I am so happy for your brother, Hafidha. I wish everyone in his situation got the same outcome.<br /><br />To me the interesting thing about the rise in incarceration rates is that, again, violent crime is down. Of course, some will argue that with so many violent folks in jail due to the high incarceration rates, of course violent crime is down. But, of course, the drop in violent crime over the last 15 years has not at all mapped to the incarceration rates.<br /><br />I suppose if the criminologists that the Washington Post interviewed don't know, there isn't much chance of me figuring it out.<br /><br />LF,<br /><br />Public defenders are wonderful people. Long-term public defenders who can do the job for a long time without getting burned out, doubly so. As much as people complain about lawyers, a lot of them are pretty good at helping reasonable and motivated people get out of bad situations. <br /><br />But the lion's share of the cried should go to the ex-con himself or herself. Your son might have gotten a good public defender by chance, but it is a credit to him that he was willing to work with her. If he hadn't been, I'm sure she would have found someone else to spend the effort on.<br /><br />A positive social netwok seems to help too. Part of my brothers' issue is that every time they leave jail, they are determined to follow the law, but their friends are the same bunch of lawbreakers they always were. <br /><br />To put it another way, if I announced I was going to go score some drugs or drive home drunk from a party, my friends would be horrified and talk me out of it. As far as I've ever seen my brothers' friends encourage behavior like that. So it doesn't surprise me that my brothers always end up back in jail. <br /><br />It is a credit to both Linguist Friend's son and Hafidha's brother that they really seem to have learned lessons and found more supportive people to be around. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-30440933192923252512009-07-21T16:37:06.616-04:002009-07-21T16:37:06.616-04:00hafidha sofia said... "but I'm sorry to h...hafidha sofia said... "but I'm sorry to hear a fellow UU met a violent end. That is just so sad."<br /><br />Would it be less sad if Robert Brundage was not a fellow U*U Hafidha? I would hope not. . . <br /><br />BTW You and other U*Us who believe the system is seriously, seriously messed up and are concerned about the criminalization of people "by design" might be well advised to pay attention to how Montreal Unitarian*Universalists have been misusing and abusing the Canadian Criminal Code to try to suppress my peaceful public protest against U*U injustices, abuses and hypocrisy in front of the Unitarian Church of Montreal for about a decade now. . . You might also want to share your concerns about the fact that I could have suffered a violent death very similar to that of Robert Brundage had Jim Wilson followed though with his threat to punch my fucking lights out. For the record I know a few Montreal Unitarian U*Us who would break out the champagne if I met such a demise or indeed *any* premature demise. Indeed one or two have said so to my face. . .Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-10960281786275537312009-07-21T16:29:13.231-04:002009-07-21T16:29:13.231-04:00In a response to the post above, Robin asked me to...In a response to the post above, Robin asked me to clarify the relevance/level of inappropriateness of bringing up my brothers here. If that interests you, you can find that on that thread. I don't want to get into a bunch of cross posting. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-34910098183841317802009-07-21T13:27:14.919-04:002009-07-21T13:27:14.919-04:00Thank you, Hafidha Sofia. I am glad that your youn...Thank you, Hafidha Sofia. I am glad that your younger brother is doing well; the album idea is impressive. I hope that the laws requiring minimum mandatory sentencing will be revised, and I believe that the criminal status of drugs produces much more crime than it eliminates. You are making me wonder about the political basis of the rise in incarceration rates.LinguistFriendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02695715246663202212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-12089044864055922862009-07-21T12:27:32.218-04:002009-07-21T12:27:32.218-04:00Another wonderful LF post, but I'm sorry to he...Another wonderful LF post, but I'm sorry to hear a fellow UU met a violent end. That is just so sad. My youngest brother spent nearly six years incarcerated under a mandatory minimum sentence (he stole drugs from a pot dealer), and was released last July. He is doing really well; since he's been out, he's gone into training, gotten a job as a union roofer, has a car, apartment, and has released a well-reviewed album. <br /><br />No doubt, the system is seriously, seriously messed up. Incarceration levels have quadrupled in the last few decades; that is not just "more criminals," it is by design.hafidha sofianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-47105654289255396912009-07-20T23:45:53.344-04:002009-07-20T23:45:53.344-04:00:Robin, I believe that you have lived through some...:Robin, I believe that you have lived through some very painful things, but you have to get past them in order to survive. Please help me pay my respects to a man who in earlier days might have deservedly been made a saint.<br /><br />I thought you were doing just fine on your own LF. My initial comment really was a quite direct reply to CC's initial comment in which I pointed out that the parallel she drew with her brothers can just as readily be drawn with U*U ministers, U*U churches, and the UUA etc. I did not mean to be insensitive to the tragic death of Robert Brundage in making that comment any more than CC did with hers. Please accept my apologies if I came across as somewhat insensitive but, like CC, I was discussing the overall dysfunctional "social dynamic" that Dr. John C. Jones pointed out.<br /><br />I am "surviving" just fine LF. The UUA and the Unitarian Church of Montreal, other U*U churches and the U*U religious community more generally need to responsibly redress my own and other people's "painful experiences" that they are either directly responsible for perpetrating or indirectly responsible for perpetuating. I dare say that doing so may well be a matter of survival for *The* Tiny Declining Fringe Religion. I am convinced that these kinds of "<a href="http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2009/07/anti-pagan-anti-christian-anti.html" rel="nofollow">painful experiences</a>" that U*Us inflict on innocent people, and the U*U community's obstinate refusal to responsibly redress such U*U injustices and abuses with some real restorative justice for those they have harmed, are a major contributing factor to why the U*U religion is a "tiny, declining, fringe religion."Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-25210042588950257832009-07-20T23:26:45.539-04:002009-07-20T23:26:45.539-04:00Robin, I believe that you have lived through some ...Robin, I believe that you have lived through some very painful things, but you have to get past them in order to survive. Please help me pay my respects to a man who in earlier days might have deservedly been made a saint. <br /> Ogre, I have mostly given up on expressing the wish that the caller should find a better job, mainly because I just don't answer the phone now without some identifying information. But I promise that I have always said it gently. You read me rightly. <br /> CC, many things took me aback about the system as we worked through it. But the process would have been enormously more difficult, and perhaps our efforts would have been unsuccessful, without my son's devoted civil defender, a tough and sharp older black woman who knew the legal system, made it possible for me to know when to pay things, told me what rehabilitation systems were worth while working towards, went to court with my son, and brought civility, reality, and honesty into the proceedings. Mt 25:36 says "I was in prison and you visited me", but in more modern terms, one of the blessings forgotten in the Bible is, "God bless the civil defenders".LinguistFriendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02695715246663202212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-44643103073475103702009-07-20T22:31:09.941-04:002009-07-20T22:31:09.941-04:00I do think that training police officers and findi...I do think that training police officers and finding the right people for the job in the first place is crucial for having a police force that is respected, and doesn't make the news for its deadly mistakes.<br /><br />Needless to say, social science geekery is always welcome at the Chaliceblog. :)<br /><br />But the police are just one aspect of the systemic issue that LF is pointing to. <br /><br />There are so many factors and it is hard to know how they interplay with one another. If we legalized drugs, for example, we might have more addiction and less crime. Drugs would likely be more widespread, but if yu could use them without entering the web that LF's son got himself caught in, maybe that would be OK. We could debate all night, but ultimately<br />whether changing that variable would be a net societal benefit is something for, well, social science geekery. <br /><br />(I tend to think that drug decriminalization on a system like the government-run ABC stores that Virginia has would be the optimal solution. But lots of smart people disagree with me on that from both directions.)<br /><br />And then there's the possibility that even if we fixed the system that LF's son was caught up in, people like Brundage still might be killed sometimes. Street crime will probably always be with us, after all. <br /><br />CC<br />still thinking about it allChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-38444443188913410552009-07-20T22:29:08.248-04:002009-07-20T22:29:08.248-04:00@LF: Brundage's name rings some distant bell f...@LF: Brundage's name rings some distant bell for me. I have no clue as to why (and probably won't, unless I wake at 2:30 having had that epiphany...).<br /><br />What a damned shame.<br /><br />And there's simply no basis for the notion that somehow America (where so many still try to come for the opportunity...) is just swamped by vastly more criminals. The conditions--macro/micro--have to lie at the heart of this. That and our incarceration of people at great cost who probably ought to be in (less expensive!) programs to help them get jobs and skills... rather than years behind bars that are supposed to magically rehabilitate them.<br /><br />....<br /><br />As someone who had a couple friends who very briefly tried to telemarket--and knew someone who did it for a living (such as it was) for well over a year (that I know of)... well, Robin, not <i>one</i> of them would have been offended at the good wish LF is reported to offer to them.<br /><br />The notion that one's *job* somehow reflects on one's <i>inherent</i> worth and dignity is... well, inherently absurd (and classist); it's definitional.<br /><br />That said, there's a clear understanding that certain kinds of job suck. I've worked a number of them. There are probably *some* which suck... but which get paid at least decently, because they're demanding in some way that makes them remunerated for their suckage. But most of them are what my old crap jobs compadres honestly did recognize as "crap jobs." Just because they lack the skills, experience, education, training and contacts to get better -- and better paying -- jobs doesn't mean that people in them aren't aware that they're caught in crap jobs. In fact, probably no one recognizes it more.<br /><br />The well wish of "I hope you find a better job" would be an unusually aware, human and caring remark, unless spat at one. And given some of the spew that's spat at telemarketers... still probably doesn't even then reach the median vitriol for the evening.ogrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15910505029382522110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-78528779522188723332009-07-20T21:04:47.698-04:002009-07-20T21:04:47.698-04:00LF, With all due respect, and you have yet to earn...LF, With all due respect, and you have yet to earn my disrespect, my comments are as closely focussed on the general topic aka theme of your post as CCs comments are. She drew the parallel to her brothers. I drew the parallel to "less than excellent" U*U ministers. In fact, as I pointed out to <a href="http://chalicechick.blogspot.com/2009/07/new-chaliceblog-rule-im-considering.html?showComment=1248130122886#c4441759344692314198" rel="nofollow">Joel Monka here</a> there is a very close parallel with what happened to Robert Brundage and what *could* have happened to me if a certain belligerent U*U had carried through with the following "death threat" -<br /><br />"Come back here next Sunday and I will punch your fucking lights out. . ."<br /><br />Death threats you ask? Well so did I. . . When I reported this threat to punch me to the point of being unconscious to a 911 dispatcher she characterized it as a "death threat". When I told her that I did not consider it to be as serious as a "death threat" she kindly pointed out to me that if the threatener actually carried through with his threat to punch me until I was unconscious that I might not ever regain consciousness so to her, and the police, it constituted a "death threat."Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-43130836243781518602009-07-20T20:53:21.160-04:002009-07-20T20:53:21.160-04:00Joel Monka: "A further though occurs... it mi...Joel Monka: "A further though occurs... it might be police per square mile, rather than per capita."<br /><br />Having friends who are cops, they'd argue that it's how much work they have to do. That could be where the "police per square mile" factor comes in; the more territory they have to cover, the more work they have to do, esp when that territory is densely packed.<br /><br />As to community policing, the main component of that is knowing the folks on your beat. If you know them and build bonds of trust, that lessens your workload and the stress involved, versus patrolling an unfamiliar area.<br /><br />Either way you slice it (geography or workload) clearly there is a case for increasing police presence -- but that's only part of the problem. There is also screening people to make sure they are suited for the job, and making sure they have good training (CC: Your example of postal workers being trained to deal with problem animals reminds me of a program with the NYPD, where psychiatrists trained them on how to deal with mentally ill suspects in the field).<br /><br />Just some observations from a social science geek...Desmond Ravenstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11731355272768955344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-17031464371674891862009-07-20T19:51:45.626-04:002009-07-20T19:51:45.626-04:00I have been working and just got to take a look at...I have been working and just got to take a look at what has been discussed here. Joel, there indeed are problems of the basis of statistical comparison. On some bases, the incarceration statistics from mainland China are almost as bad as the US ones. Robin, I wish that your comments, which I know can be helpful, had focussed more closely on the topic of my post. CC, thank you for your contributions. I had not thought <br />of the parallel to your brothers. One of my most useful discussions of the situation about my youngest son was with an LA social worker friend who had worked in the same environment as my son, and had gone through similar problems, and survived. That, as you and Dr. Jones point out, is a real and powerful effect of social environment.<br /><br /> Lois, the good part of the story, from my point of view, is that my youngest son really seems to have gotten over those problems and is back at work selling clothes to people in LA, usually somewhere around Hollywood. He has not yet reached his previous level, but the roadblocks are out of the way and he is making progress. That, of course, is priceless. <br /><br /> Since I study things that fascinate me, I never have been eager to retire, and I have studied and worked in more than one area. But it will take a while to reorient myself. I can manage until then, I expect, and rebuild. Some aspects of the situation make it a difficult and risky transition. That, of course, is a circumstance which I share with many people at this point in history. <br /><br /> Finally, I went back to First Church yesterday, and found that my name tag was still close to that of Brundage, which is alphabetic. By the time I left, his name tag had been removed from the rack. I hope that the significance of his death - and life - will be recognized more adequately.LinguistFriendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02695715246663202212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-8546355915988953512009-07-20T18:32:07.453-04:002009-07-20T18:32:07.453-04:00:But yeah, LF tells telemarketers "I hope you...:But yeah, LF tells telemarketers "I hope you get a better job" before he hangs up on them. That's how good he is. <br /><br />That actually sounds rather condescending and could come across as quite "snarky" depending on the proverbial *delivery*. Even when stated in the most polite and sincere way, "I hope you get a better job" still doesn't do all that much for the worth and dignity of the telemarketer does it? It is one of those things that might be better left unsaid.<br /><br />WVC = ingnat as in gadfly :-)Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-12594016074790482252009-07-20T18:10:56.208-04:002009-07-20T18:10:56.208-04:00Joel,
That makes sense. I would think that dense...Joel,<br /><br />That makes sense. I would think that densely-populated areas would be easier to community-police, if not easier to police in general. And I certainly see quite a few police in downtown DC, though I frequent courthouses and so do police. <br /><br />Lois, <br /><br />When last I heard, LF's son was in retail and was an assistant manager or something. I've never met LF's son, actually any of LF's sons, but my understanding is that this son has the outgoing personality for retail and is very good at his job when his other problems aren't distracting him. <br /><br />And I agree that LF is a great example of humanity in general (though the phrase "our UU values" makes me queasy, but that's another post). But yeah, LF tells telemarketers "I hope you get a better job" before he hangs up on them. That's how good he is. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-33194014306437624372009-07-20T17:58:44.707-04:002009-07-20T17:58:44.707-04:00LinguistFriend,
Thank you for this. It made me so...LinguistFriend,<br /><br />Thank you for this. It made me so sad to think of what happened to that sweet, intelligent man. You and Mr. Brundage are both wonderful examples of living our UU values. I worry about you without money for retirement, but I can't think of a better way to have spent your retirement money. <br /><br />What is your son doing now?Loisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-90386936763727172162009-07-20T17:52:39.446-04:002009-07-20T17:52:39.446-04:00A further though occurs... it might be police per ...A further though occurs... it might be police per square mile, rather than per capita. Paris is only 33.6 square miles- easy to pack a lot of cops per mile. Indianapolis is 372 square miles- a lot of territory to cover, and we only have a third of Paris' population to cover the cost. The same ratios are probably true for just about any Europe/American city comparison.Joel Monkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10631333436948102576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-26799320922848062882009-07-20T17:29:25.918-04:002009-07-20T17:29:25.918-04:00:Robin, that comment remains the fifth comment on ...:Robin, that comment remains the fifth comment on this page. I haven't touched it and have no intention of doing so.<br /><br />Well when I had a look back here earlier it seemed to have disappeared CC. Perhaps I somehow managed to overlook it. <br /><br />:Please do not accuse me of things unless you are certain you are correct.<br /><br />You're a one to talk aren't you CC? You have falsely accused me of far worse things without taking steps to be quite certain that *your* accusations were correct. . . Perhaps most notably, and relatively recently, you made the following quite serious false accusation about me on <a href="http://uuawayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/05/why-i-support-robin-edgar.html?showComment=1241972880000#c1169827935831838033" rel="nofollow">May 10, 2009 12:28 PM </a> -<br /><br />Wait, so you think that my mentioning the kids pseudonyms, I am endangering them, so you decided to magnify the danger by making the post more famous?<br /><br />Now if you had only bothered to go to my StumbleUpon blog to check when I actually made the post in question "more famous" by submitting it to the StumbleUpon social blogging system you would have seen that I actually did so on May 7, 2009 at 6:34pm. The better part of three days *before* you falsely accused me of knowingly and willfully deciding to "magnify the danger". . . When <a href="http://uuawayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/05/why-i-support-robin-edgar.html?showComment=1242071640000#c3638575882497629758" rel="nofollow">I called you</a> on that clearly suspicious-minded and quite libelous false accusation about me you hid under the seat as it were.<br /><br />And I do believe that the WVC for this particular comment bears mentioning in this context CC. Believe it or not it is setratio as in set ratio. . . Need I say more?Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-46578124928701862312009-07-20T16:42:40.581-04:002009-07-20T16:42:40.581-04:00Of course, the moment I post that, it occurs to me...Of course, the moment I post that, it occurs to me that <a href="http://www.foxtoledo.com/dpp/news/local/wupw_Residents_upset_over_parking_violations_061509" rel="nofollow">Toldeo residents get crazy parking tickets anyway.</a><br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-69668356576734065792009-07-20T16:41:04.371-04:002009-07-20T16:41:04.371-04:00Ever the cynic about the police, I will point out ...Ever the cynic about the police, I will point out that communities that have demanded "community policing" and gotten it have been aghast at the number of parking tickets they've started to get as a result of the cost of community policing and having lots of cops standing around bored. <br /><br />I think there was a community in Maryland that changed its mind on community policing a bit ago. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-10923041716025087842009-07-20T16:38:20.074-04:002009-07-20T16:38:20.074-04:00I wonder if European cops are better at "comm...I wonder if European cops are better at "community policing" (that is, they are felt to be part of the community and people who live in the neighborhood that a particular cop patrols feel comfortable reporting information to her), since that is what the decreases in crime in some American cities has been <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/19/AR2009071902154.html?hpid=topnews" rel="nofollow">attributed to</a>.PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09381347581328622706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-44930551433946392009-07-20T16:31:52.991-04:002009-07-20T16:31:52.991-04:00Robin, that comment remains the fifth comment on t...Robin, that comment remains the fifth comment on this page. I haven't touched it and have no intention of doing so. <br /><br />Please do not accuse me of things unless you are certain you are correct.<br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-91811348086093939292009-07-20T16:29:49.952-04:002009-07-20T16:29:49.952-04:00I tend to think the police we have could use a lot...I tend to think the police we have could use a lot more training. The post office, for example, gets help from the ASPCA when trains mail carriers extensively in how to deal with a dog who is giving them trouble. In contrast, a lot of police officers raiding a house just shoot dogs on sight, even those that pose no threat or are running away. <br /><br />But I'm getting off on a rant there.<br /><br />I'm not sure if other countries keep statistics as well as we do. Are we really certain that other countries aren't having a similar amount of crime and keeping worse records and/or having fewer of the crimes reported?<br /><br />While I will agree there are dysfunctions in American culture, I'm not so certain that those same dysfunctions don't still exist other places. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-8127829370958329052009-07-20T16:27:18.899-04:002009-07-20T16:27:18.899-04:00CC, I am reposting the (im)pertinent on-topic comm...CC, I am reposting the (im)pertinent on-topic comment that you "memory holed" without the slightest mention of the thimg that amy not be mentioned so as to deprive you of *that* excuse for "memory holing" it. I guess you will have to think up some other excuse to suppress it now. . .<br /><br />I was discussing your follow-up comment which is presumably pertinent to LF's post CC. BTW <a href="http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2009/02/praise-lord-uus-but-please-please.html" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">The U*U "ammunition"</a> that you passed to me here is a bit *too* good to pass up. . . Please allow me to *demonstrate* -<br /><br />They were <a href="http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=2kJ&q=Rev.+%22Beth+Miller%22+and+Rev.+%22Tracey+Robinson-Harris%22+were+rescuing+Peacebang.+.+.&btnG=Search&meta=" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">rescuing a friend in trouble</a>* (and <a href="http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2009/02/are-rev-beth-miller-and-rev-dr-tracey.html" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">got involved in a fight</a>), they were <a href="http://www.google.ca/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=Unitarians+elected+Rev.+Peter+Morales+as+UUA+President&meta=&btnG=Google+Search" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">driving a friend home</a> (and <a href="http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=a9y&q=Rev.+Peter+Morales+said+Judaism%2C+Christianity+and+Islam+are+%22obsolete+religions%22.+.+.&btnG=Search&meta=" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">he had weed on him</a> and <a href="http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2009/07/rev-peter-morales-was-very-poorly.html" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">hid it under the seat</a>), or they were just holding on to something <a href="http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2008/02/is-aurlien-guillory-crazy.html" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">their friend stole</a> for a few days.<br /><br />So as U*U can see. . . I *really* meant it when I said -<br /><br />Heck <a href="http://www.google.ca/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=the+Unitarian+Church+Of+Montreal+was+a+%22friend%22+to+Rev.+Ray+Drennan.+.+.&meta=&btnG=Google+Search" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">whole U*U churches</a>, <a href="http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=kFz&q=The+UUA+was+a+%22friend%22+to+Rev.+Ray+Drennan.+.+.&btnG=Search&meta=" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">the UUA</a>, and even "whole networks of friendship" aka *<a href="http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=rHz&q=The+Ministerial+*Fellowship*+Committee+was+a+%22friend%22+to+Rev.+Ray+Drennan.+.+.&btnG=Search&meta=" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">fellowship</a>* slide into *that* behavior CC. . .<br /><br /><br /><br />* I dare say that The Ghost in the Google "machine" was *very* much on my side there CC. . . What are the odds against *that* meaningful "coincidence?Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.com