tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post1196593917724577185..comments2023-10-24T05:49:04.269-04:00Comments on The Chaliceblog: CC and Revsparker say a quick helloChalicechickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-70932316620810104612007-06-13T00:54:00.000-04:002007-06-13T00:54:00.000-04:00My impression is still that y'all are a bunch of U...My impression is still that y'all are <A HREF="http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2007/05/silent-spring-aka-writing-on-sidewalk.html" REL="nofollow">a bunch of U*Us</A>. . . ;-)Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-70383755757231952772007-06-08T17:14:00.000-04:002007-06-08T17:14:00.000-04:00"...ignore the lessons of Jesus? "Which lessons ar...<I>"...ignore the lessons of Jesus? "</I><BR/><BR/>Which lessons are those? There are so many different versions....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-32403581970808580732007-06-08T16:11:00.000-04:002007-06-08T16:11:00.000-04:00I love Sean. This is the only thing on this whole ...I love Sean. This is the only thing on this whole topic that I've read (apart from one of Sean's posts) that didn't make me want to shut off the computer.LaReinaCobrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13554970165949410961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-9262031633587309572007-06-07T14:53:00.000-04:002007-06-07T14:53:00.000-04:00Rereading this paragraph, I realize it doesn't mak...Rereading this paragraph, I realize it doesn't make much sense because a sentence is out of order:<BR/><BR/><I>Where JTW and similar programs depart from the classic Unitarian paradigm, though, and I think it is a foolish omission, is their failure to see in Jesus of Nazareth the archetype of human perfectibility, the example for the rest of us to follow in our effort to overcome human failings. I don't mean by this that they acknowledged a divine Christ --they did not!-- but merely that they understood Jesus to be the most reliable moral teacher and exemplar available. Arguably, there has been no more effective champion against oppression in human history than (even this entirely human apprehension of) Jesus. That's what our Unitarian predecessors who argued against total incapacity and in favor of moral perfectibility believed, anyway. </I><BR/><BR/>It should read this way:<BR/><BR/>Where JTW and similar programs depart from the classic Unitarian paradigm, though, and I think it is a foolish omission, is their failure to see in Jesus of Nazareth the archetype of human perfectibility, the example for the rest of us to follow in our effort to overcome human failings. Arguably, there has been no more effective champion against oppression in human history than (even this entirely human apprehension of) Jesus. That's what our Unitarian predecessors who argued against total incapacity and in favor of moral perfectibility believed, anyway. I don't mean by this that they acknowledged a divine Christ --they did not!-- or that we should, but merely that they understood Jesus to be the most reliable moral teacher and exemplar available.faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-28159849378815662952007-06-07T10:31:00.000-04:002007-06-07T10:31:00.000-04:00I don't think the born-that-way-and-incapable-of-c...<I>I don't think the born-that-way-and-incapable-of-change model is at all inconsistent with the way some people in UU anti-racism view whites.</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps that's true, but if so, their prescription for a cure to the problem of incapacity is about as far from Calvinism as it is possible to be. It was the comparison to Calvinism that I was responding to.<BR/><BR/>Their malignant view of whites is also not a very good way to minister to the spiritual needs of a population that, let's be brutally honest, is mostly white.<BR/><BR/>Nor is their normative, programmatic response respectful of our faith community's core organizational principles of personal as opposed to creedal discernment and congregational as opposed to hierarchical polity. In our tradition, if you are willing to cross the line from personal discernment into spiritual authoritarianism --which is exactly how AR/AO is perceived in some quarters-- you yourself become an oppressor. Which, of course, is an especially lousy way to fight oppression.faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-65841214803822808192007-06-07T10:10:00.000-04:002007-06-07T10:10:00.000-04:00I don't think the born-that-way-and-incapable-of-c...I don't think the born-that-way-and-incapable-of-change model is at all inconsistent with the way some people in UU anti-racism view whites.<BR/><BR/>I will admit that it is inconsistent with what Sean said. <BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-5909851988696306662007-06-07T09:52:00.000-04:002007-06-07T09:52:00.000-04:00Thanks for reporting this very constructive conver...Thanks for reporting this very constructive conversation.<BR/><BR/>One premise jumped out at me that I'll quibble with:<BR/><BR/><I>[RevSparker:] ... From my perspective, they made one HUGE mistake: they borrowed materials from other faiths and those materials were based in a Calvinistic "original sin" mentality. And yet, lots of people had life changing experiences in spite of that.<BR/><BR/>ChaliceChick: those materials were based in a Calvinistic "original sin" mentality<BR/>OK, both sides of this debate jsut started to make a hell of a lot more sense to me.<BR/><BR/>RevSparker: Yup. The Crossroads model really says that racism, like original sin, is inborn and whites are guilty. (if not inborn, taught at such a young age that it is impossible to escape) <BR/>and that the only way to "redemption" is strict adherence to an AR/AO model and practice:<BR/>to root out racism in all its forms...<BR/>to confess our guilt...<BR/>etc. etc. etc</I><BR/><BR/>This actually sounds much more like Unitarianism than Calvinism to me.<BR/><BR/>In the Calvinist model of Original Sin, human nature is not only inherently sinful, or at least predisposed toward sin, but also inherently and thoroughly incapable of doing anything to change it, or to overcome the estrangement from God that sinfulness causes. In the Calvinist model, all of those efforts would necessarily be futile. The only hope is not strict adherence to AR/AO or any other course of self-initiated redemptive action (which, being itself corrupt, is predestined to failure), but rather, recognition of our utter helplessness, incapacity, and dependence on God's mercy (which, as sinful wretches, we don't deserve).<BR/><BR/>It is the <I>Unitarian</I>, not Calvinist, model of Original Sin that supposes that the flaws in human nature are correctible by human effort. In the Unitarian model, human nature is not inherently depraved, but inherently perfectible. That's why Channing could speak of the human "likeness to God" and Clarke could speak of "salvation by character". It's why in the 19th century our own admittedly privileged classes nevertheless produced selflessly dedicated champions against oppression such as Robert Gould Shaw.<BR/><BR/>Where JTW and similar programs depart from the classic Unitarian paradigm, though, and I think it is a foolish omission, is their failure to see in Jesus of Nazareth the archetype of human perfectibility, the example for the rest of us to follow in our effort to overcome human failings. I don't mean by this that they acknowledged a divine Christ --they did not!-- but merely that they understood Jesus to be the most reliable moral teacher and exemplar available. Arguably, there has been no more effective champion against oppression in human history than (even this entirely human apprehension of) Jesus. That's what our Unitarian predecessors who argued against total incapacity and in favor of moral perfectibility believed, anyway. <BR/><BR/>Which begs the question: why would those of us who inherit their legacy, and who similarly care about resisting oppression, ignore the lessons of Jesus? and is our omission somehow related to the failure of our effort? In recent memory Gandhi and King, a non-Christian and a Christian whom we all like to admire, both followed Jesus' model for resisting oppression, with tremendous success. Why then don't we?faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.com