tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post8877981342985786507..comments2023-10-24T05:49:04.269-04:00Comments on The Chaliceblog: My take on class within UUismChalicechickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-42164997180645507162009-03-27T01:36:00.000-04:002009-03-27T01:36:00.000-04:00(I'm the same anonymous)I hope it didn't come acro...(I'm the same anonymous)<BR/><BR/>I hope it didn't come across as my doubting that there's a travel emphasis. Reading about it made me appreciate my own congregation, where I do feel that there's a lot of (very intentional) balance and inclusion (on this, and in general). But, it does take intention, because otherwise the "travel" focus would take over (in this case). And it is always something, so it takes intention to look for the missing pieces. Often. Anyway, I do not mean to cast doubt on your experiences -- just offering some mild contrast and also my dismay at hearing how it is done elsewhere! (Also, I'll pay attention this year to see if it really does feel welcoming for local water.)<BR/><BR/>Re: your excommunication: is there info on that here if I go back a bit? It seems worth reading about.<BR/><BR/>Re: the saliva. I don't discount that there may be personal factors, but I am also here to tell you that (many or most) people are REALLY grossed out my other people's bodies. I'm not sure what to say about it, it seems both deeply odd and deeply normal to me, at the same time. Anyway, I think a lot of people are just plain repulsed by spit (as well as other body fluids and smells etc).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-79660203644586714652009-03-26T00:54:00.000-04:002009-03-26T00:54:00.000-04:00Anonymous and Donna,The emphasis was very much on ...Anonymous and Donna,<BR/><BR/>The emphasis was very much on water from summer "travels" at the Unitarian Church of Montreal and I expect many other U*U churches. It may have "evolved" a bit in other U*U churches and even the UCM which I have not attended for close to a decade now being an "excommunicated" Unitarian for daring to publicly expose the anti-religious intolerance and bigotry of the "fundamentalist atheist" faction of Humanists. The travel aspect is very clear in the Wikipedia entry about '<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Communion" REL="nofollow">Water Communion</A>.' It is for that reason that I chose to put a small amount of saliva in the communion bowel rather than substitute local water. I made a point of discussing the properties of water, including the fact that it was very likely that my body retained some of the molecules of water from my summer travels to the UUA GA in Rochester NY. <BR/><BR/>Most ironically what I did, with the associated talk about the properties of water, was very much in line with <A HREF="http://www.uua.org/religiouseducation/curricula/tapestryfaith/toolboxfaith/session9/sessionplan/activities/109712.shtml" REL="nofollow">this official UUA suggestion</A> for how children might participate in 'Water Communion.' I still am amazed that any reasonable adult could get upset about what I did. It was really quite discrete and I expect that the rumor mongering has more to do with those people who were already seeking to demonize me making an issue out of it after the fact, possibly years after the fact. . . Nobody expressed any discomfort at the time and it was only years later that I was informed by a member of the UCM that some people were spreading the rumor that I had spat in the 'Water Communion' bowl. Thankfully Juan Vera at least acknowledges the true facts, even though he pretends that simply putting my finger in my mouth, coating it with a thin film of saliva, and swishing my finger in the bowl of water, was "disruptive" behavior.<BR/><BR/>BTW Donna is that beautiful calico cat in your profile image yours? I used to have two beautiful calico cats myself but had to give them away when I had to move to a place where I cannot have pets.Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-72222176856216914012009-03-25T13:06:00.000-04:002009-03-25T13:06:00.000-04:00I'm surprised-but-not-surprised by Dudley's commen...I'm surprised-but-not-surprised by Dudley's comment about never having thought of water communion as relating to class. I've seen water communion ONCE, and the connection was obvious to me right away. Perhaps because I put in water from the hose I use to water my garden rather than from any travel. That may have given me an "advantage" in noticing. My UU church (being deeply personal and inclusive) introduced it with a clear invitation to use ANY water, including local water. I don't recall now what was said, but I know that my local water WAS invited. But the money-travel connection was still way-obvious to me. If I were to observe a WC in which ONLY "travel" water was invited, I think I would be very put off by it. From these comments it sounds like that is how WC is done (in many cases)???<BR/><BR/>Now, I'm glad Dudley can think about the money-connection, too -- but I'll add that there are about a zillion other similar money-relevant issues I notice at my UU church. And I am NOT saying I "object" to them or feel "marginalized" by (all of) them -- but I'm aware, and I also know that others will be affected DIFFERENTLY than I am.... that is, it is not my personal reaction that is the best gauge to whether an issue "might be problematic for someone".<BR/><BR/>And, indeed, being aware is entirely different from "knowing what to do differently". But it is a first step!<BR/><BR/>I imagine there are many CLASS issues that I'm unaware of -- but I'm pretty aware of the financial issues, so that's why I'm using $ words rather than class. Slice it elsewise if you want.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and I like the comment about few churches really having a span of incomes. My church is located in a downtown area, across from a park where homeless and poor people hang out (and/or live/sleep). I'm really glad we now have a tiny team discussing ways we might interact with these people. It's a real issue, and certainly very challenging for many or most people. I'm not expecting miracles but if we can even find ways to "do better" on it, I'll be glad for that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-85668919419371580322009-03-23T13:01:00.000-04:002009-03-23T13:01:00.000-04:00Robin, the solution to forgetting water is simple-...Robin, the solution to forgetting water is simple--get it out of the kitchen tap at the church. There should be a cup or two in the cupboard. Of course, I don't know how big your church is. Ours is a converted house, rather than a regular church building. Maybe that wasn't an option for you.<BR/><BR/>I can't afford to go out of town on vacations, so my water is purely local (in fact, from my house) and, really, no one at my church cares.Donnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17007956146307497282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-12117453110641013992009-03-22T03:40:00.000-04:002009-03-22T03:40:00.000-04:00When is a cigar just a cigar? Can't one ask what ...When is a cigar just a cigar? Can't one ask what someone does in order to know more about them and have something to talk about, or have some idea how much background info to give when you're explaining something?<BR/>Again, "Where do you live?" can be just a quest for information for some purpose. <BR/>How do you tell the difference? And why is it no longer politically correct to assume good intentions?<BR/><BR/>Our water communion has always had the full gamut from trips around the world to backyard hoses. <BR/><BR/>Maybe the solution is to not be embarrassed if you don't live in the best part of town....?<BR/><BR/>Our teen (who no longer lives with us) was what you would probably call "blue collar" -- she comes from that kind of background and she certainly sees no reason to go to college and thinks school is just stupid. She seems to have more travel money than we do though. She also spends what sounds to me like large amounts of her earnings on tatoos. Really-- she travels to Florida or Illinois three times a year from California. We couldn't afford that. We travel to places like Windsor. (Two and a half hours north of here by car.)kimchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14020798623317549440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-3984172696288669902009-03-21T20:12:00.000-04:002009-03-21T20:12:00.000-04:00I never intended to suggest that it was illogical ...I never intended to suggest that it was illogical or that your intentions were anything but pristine. I intended to suggest that it grossed me out anyway. <BR/><BR/>This may be a personal thing. <BR/><BR/>But yeah, if I had forgotten my water, I would have just sat the water communion out and watched everyone else, which is usually what I do anyway. <BR/><BR/>The only water communion that has ever meant much to me was the one that happened mere days after Hurricaine Katrina as water was destroying a city that I had once lived in and had not liked but still cared about. <BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-80748150282043339572009-03-21T18:57:00.000-04:002009-03-21T18:57:00.000-04:00It wasn't intended to. I simply forgot to bring th...It wasn't intended to. I simply forgot to bring the water that I had intended to bring. One of the points that I tried to make to Juan Vera in the video is that water from the ocean, lakes and rivers, to say nothing of chlorinated swimming pools. . . contains trace amounts of all of those things CC. Even if it is only fish semen, fish urine, fish blood or fish snot, which it isn't. . . Obviously no one at the Unitarian Church of Montreal, at least none of the complainers anyway, read Frank Herbert's 'Dune' or they might have been honored by the fact that I shared my own personal water in the 'Water Communion.Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-4548750410018123572009-03-21T08:16:00.000-04:002009-03-21T08:16:00.000-04:00Yeah, also, keep in mind there were ten straight y...Yeah, also, keep in mind there were ten straight years where I never made took a pleasure vacation in the "go someplace, stay in a hotel" sense. <BR/><BR/>That said, in grad school when I lived on $10,000 a year theCSO and I saved up carefully for our trips, but we did attend my brothers' high school graduation and made it to his parents' house for Christmas.<BR/><BR/>Even with the incomes we have now, he vacations by going to Science fiction conventions and I go visit friends or go to GA. Those places have water, none are particularly expensive if you're careful. For years we didn't even see the point of regular vacations and the associated hassles.<BR/><BR/>(After my extremely stressful first semester of law school we did see the need to go off by ourselves for a week, so in our entire marriage we have taken one vacation. But it was in the middle of winter and the water communion never occurred to me.)<BR/><BR/>There will always be people who use the water communion as a chance to brag, but those people will probably brag anyway. Most people who don't take any trips at all could afford to at least go camping or visit a friend and are simply choosing not to possibly because they view big vacations as more trouble than they are worth like theCSO and I do. <BR/><BR/>And as a law student who kinda specializes in fine distinctions, I suppose I can see the difference between "placing your saliva in with everyone else's water with an explanation" and "spitting in everyone else's water," but I can understand how this difference would be lost on some people. <BR/><BR/>Truth be told, I'm kinda hinky about bodily fluids myself and am frankly pretty icked out even though I understand the logic behind what you did. And using semen, urine, blood or snot would have been just as logical and might have but me in a dead faint had I been there. <BR/><BR/>I'm glad the saliva thing didn't catch on as a trend.<BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-36816913326761624812009-03-21T00:42:00.000-04:002009-03-21T00:42:00.000-04:00Robin,I think CC was referring to income differenc...Robin,<BR/><BR/>I think CC was referring to income differences too -- poor people go places. They may not go far, but even people living in Mumbai a la Slumdog Millionaire occasionally break from their daily routine to go somewhere different, often somewhere with water (like a relative's house, as CC provided as an example).PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09381347581328622706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-55181822770733169422009-03-20T19:14:00.000-04:002009-03-20T19:14:00.000-04:00I think I may have seen that joke once before CC. ...I think I may have seen that joke once before CC. I guess I did a variation of it when I forgot my water at home and decided to mix a bit of my own saliva in with everyone else's travel water after explaining that it probably still contained some of the molecules from the water that I drank during my travels. What a terrible crime that was. It was only years later that I heard that some Montreal U*Us had mythologized that onto yours truly "spitting" into the "Water Communion" bowl. As may be seen in <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0-ZmydNBAc" REL="nofollow">this U*UTube video</A>. <BR/><BR/>I have thought of the classism aspects of "Water Communion" long before. I just mentioned them again because some U*U dolt described "Water Communion" as one of "the most beautiful" ceremonies he had ever seen in his life. . .<BR/><BR/>:Umm... Didn't any of you people grow up blue collar or know anyone who did? Blue collar people take vacations too. They may be to Grandma's rather than the south of France, but they still travel.<BR/><BR/>I am aware of that CC and would be the first to acknowledge that *some* blue collar workers are better off financially than *some* white collar workers. I was clearly talking more about rich vs. poor U*Us more than "white collar vs. blue collar" lines, as should be clear from my comments.Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-72238756170926339652009-03-20T15:35:00.000-04:002009-03-20T15:35:00.000-04:00Class isn't just a UU issue; very few faiths have ...Class isn't just a UU issue; very few faiths have a wide spread in any one congregation. For example, I was raised Baptist; and while there are plenty of Baptist millionaires, there sure weren't any in OUR congregation! In fact, All Souls is far more diverse than the Baptist church I was raised in- one family has a chair at Butler University in their name, another family we have given rides to church to because they don't own a car.Joel Monkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10631333436948102576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-86716611805939704482009-03-20T14:21:00.000-04:002009-03-20T14:21:00.000-04:00I think the water communion was pretty thoroughly ...I think the water communion was pretty thoroughly discussed in the past, wasn't it? I think it can be done much better than the variations I've seen. I'm not sure if it's classist as much as it's pretentious and dumb in the varieties I've seen. <BR/><BR/>However, the idea about a collection of attitudes resonates with me.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18040824813209082919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-49827616408510187012009-03-20T13:49:00.000-04:002009-03-20T13:49:00.000-04:00I turned my next response into a full blogpost: W...I turned my next response into a full blogpost: <A HREF="http://uulaypreach.blogspot.com/2009/03/who-are-our-people.html" REL="nofollow"> Who are Our People?</A>David Throophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14942067696830429689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-6251043039934362412009-03-20T13:13:00.000-04:002009-03-20T13:13:00.000-04:00Chicago's an immigrant town. Workers of all income...Chicago's an immigrant town. Workers of all incomes from all over the world. World travel hardly a rich person thing.Bill Baarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07095486926836836714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-77893345942244042462009-03-20T12:38:00.000-04:002009-03-20T12:38:00.000-04:00And of course assuming "Blue collar people are so ...And of course assuming "Blue collar people are so poor that they can't afford to travel anywhere at all over the summer, so we should change water communion to protect them from having to hear that other people travel to other places." isn't classist at all. <BR/><BR/>Umm... Didn't any of you people grow up blue collar or know anyone who did? Blue collar people take vacations too. They may be to Grandma's rather than the south of France, but they still travel. <BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-69585240622430350452009-03-20T12:34:00.000-04:002009-03-20T12:34:00.000-04:00If you guys hadn't thought through the class impli...If you guys hadn't thought through the class implications of water communion before then I'm assuming the joke about the guy who made fun of people who were pretentious about water communion by standing up, dumping in his water and saying <BR/><BR/>"This is from a secret holy spring on top of a mountaintop in a rural part of Mexico that I traveled to this summer. The locals call the spring 'El Banyo"<BR/><BR/>will be new to you. <BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-12156661679155972492009-03-20T12:33:00.001-04:002009-03-20T12:33:00.001-04:00I do try to be insightful Dudley. If only more U*U...I do try to be insightful Dudley. If only more U*Us would responsibly pay attention to my diverse insightful observations about various <A HREF="http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2009/01/never-mind-bollocks-or-sex-pistols.html" REL="nofollow">problems</A> within The U*U Movement, and then responsibly act upon them. . . The Wikipedia entry for Water Communion makes it clear that it the water is supposed to be from "travels". That is always how I understood "Water Communion" and that is how it was practiced at the Unitarian Church of Montreal which is largely composed of 97% White upper-middle class, or at least "97% White Collar" WASU*Us. If some U*U congregations have moved towards accepting local water that is all well and good but my point still stands in terms of "traditional" U*U "Water Communion" as it is no doubt practiced in many other U*U churches. In fact, even in the context of CC's scenario the class divisions between "haves" and "have nots" when it comes to travel are still obvious even if the "have nots" can participate in "Water Communion" by contributing local water from a swimming pool etc.Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-55094636291825584702009-03-20T12:33:00.000-04:002009-03-20T12:33:00.000-04:00I never heard of water communion before... I don't...I never heard of water communion before... I don't think we do one at our church. <BR/><BR/>I can't recall one at Unity Temple Oak Park in the 80s either. I would avoid anything with the word "communion" in it so maybe that's why.<BR/><BR/>I should dust off my copies of Veblen and do a post on his Theory of the Leisure Class. <BR/><BR/>What most UUs call class, is really differention based on what people do with their income (and time) vs how they obtain that income (labor vs bond coupons and stock dividends).<BR/><BR/>One of my fears with this class talk among UUs, is you do see on occassion a nasty habit of UUs talking of people as "others", as objects, when I'm not quite sure those folks would see themselves as any different from us UUs.<BR/><BR/>I've wondered how I would feel bringing such a friend from one of these "objectified" classes to Church and having that otherness pointed out to them... in as kindly a way as possible...Bill Baarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07095486926836836714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-61411789752479303732009-03-20T12:10:00.000-04:002009-03-20T12:10:00.000-04:00It is true that UUs can be snarky about engineers,...It is true that UUs can be snarky about engineers, based on my limited personal experience. I just try to ignore things like that.<BR/><BR/>Robin Edgar's comment on the water communion was truly insightful - I have attended many of them, and never picked up on the obvious truth he points out. <BR/><BR/>best wishes<BR/><BR/>Dudley Jones<BR/>jonesdudley@hotmail.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-77882655204883129252009-03-20T11:57:00.000-04:002009-03-20T11:57:00.000-04:00That's another thing I don't get about this issue....That's another thing I don't get about this issue. I disagree with the stereotyped UU view on like half the issues you list, David, and it's never held me back from feeling like I fit in because the theological connection is there. <BR/><BR/>And I'm far from the only one with significant disagreements. <BR/><BR/>I don't mean to insult the Debbies of the world but I don't understand them. <BR/><BR/>I mean, sure, the fact that Adam Sandler movies tend to be box office smashes makes me threaten to expatriate, but that doesn't mean I actually feel I don't fit in here in America and leave. <BR/><BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-39103689784844202112009-03-20T11:47:00.000-04:002009-03-20T11:47:00.000-04:00Years ago, a woman named Debbie attended my church...Years ago, a woman named Debbie attended my church for about a year; then she fell away. I ran into her at a store. She said that she'd felt welcomed in our church, but that she never felt like she fit in. She had an engineering degree and a civil servant job, but somehow that didn't make her feel like she was in her element. I've seen other folks like Debbie come and go from our churches.<BR/><BR/>Class is more than wealth, income, education. It also is a set of concerns, attitudes. It's our political and social views. It's how we feel about gay marriage and how important a topic we feel gay marriage in the larger scheme of things.<BR/><BR/>Individual attitudes aren't strong class markers, but collections of them are. Our averaged UU attitudes towards NPR, abortion, Sams Club, vegans, water rights, Fox news, polyester, reparations for slavery, handing out condoms in OWL, Lincoln Towncars, Mexican immigration -- this constellation of concerns is a class marker just as much as is driving a Lexus, wearing Prada or having a fancy zipcode.<BR/><BR/>This is part of the story about how some folks come to our congregations and say "I feel like I've always belong here." And Debbie can come for a year, agree with our theology, and yet never feel like she's one of us.<BR/><BR/>The water communion and the questions at coffee hour are part of the UU Class Issue, true. But I think it goes much deeper than that. Water communions can be changed relatively easily. But all the more subtle class markers - the very topics that we choose to discuss - are part of the way that we exclude people. There would be enormously difficult to change. And I doubt that we should.<BR/><BR/>You see, the subtle class markers that exclude some are also part of the way that we bind ourselves together into a coherent community. I suspect that if my church really did manage to change the subtle cues that alienated Debbie, we would lose a dozen long term families before we'd changed enough to make her feel like "Hey, this is where I always belonged."David Throophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14942067696830429689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-66112309789196981592009-03-20T11:25:00.000-04:002009-03-20T11:25:00.000-04:00Now I'm wondering if the blue collar v. white coll...Now I'm wondering if the blue collar v. white collar is some sort of false dichotomy distracting us from what really matters, which seems to be the notion of being welcoming as a denomination.<BR/><BR/>This is not to say that I think there aren't class issues.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18040824813209082919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-13824578269949006442009-03-20T11:17:00.000-04:002009-03-20T11:17:00.000-04:00Another example, I go to church with a lady who, r...Another example, I go to church with a lady who, right out of high school, got a job working for a patent law firm. She was apparently good at her job and has been working for patent firms ever since. <BR/><BR/>Given that she works for a big patent law firm and has decades of experience as a patent secretary, my guess is she makes at least twice what I make. Probably more. As far as I know being a patent secretary is one of the higher paying jobs you can have without a college degree.<BR/><BR/>But she's never been to college.<BR/><BR/>Blue collar? Yes? No?<BR/><BR/>Certainly she's not embarassed to mention what part of town she lives in. <BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-87736992300398281082009-03-20T11:12:00.000-04:002009-03-20T11:12:00.000-04:00Another point on Blue Collar vs. White Collar:Bob ...Another point on Blue Collar vs. White Collar:<BR/><BR/>Bob is a young guy with maybe a little college, maybe not, who likes to fix things. He gets a job fixing things. He's good at his job, and the most talented guy he works with takes him under his wing. <BR/><BR/>Five years later, Bob is the expert. People who need things fixed come to him. Maybe he starts his own business, maybe he works for a big company fixing what's broken there. <BR/><BR/>If Bob fixing plumbing, he's blue collar. <BR/><BR/>If Bob fixes computers, he's white collar, though he doesn't necessarily make any more money. <BR/><BR/>It just seems so arbitrary. <BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-32706876722071928432009-03-20T11:09:00.000-04:002009-03-20T11:09:00.000-04:00I would never ask anyone what they do for a living...I would never ask anyone what they do for a living. At least not without knowing them for a while...and then it would probably be useless question.<BR/><BR/>I think we in the midwest are prone to asking people where they are from... and we mean which neigborhood, or high school did you attend.<BR/><BR/>I've belonged to my Church for going ten years I would think, and I'd say most people I know there...I don't have a clue what they do... I do know the retired ones and there are plenty of those.Bill Baarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07095486926836836714noreply@blogger.com