tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post7645141021053097808..comments2023-10-24T05:49:04.269-04:00Comments on The Chaliceblog: My candidate for most annoying Unitarian habit.Chalicechickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-53777326950366582762007-10-26T10:00:00.000-04:002007-10-26T10:00:00.000-04:00Actually, I don't think she's claiming that the 7 ...Actually, I don't think she's claiming that the 7 principles are a creed. She's saying that UU's are supposed to have certain core values, and here's an issue where those values clearly come into play. It would be like me saying that a UU can't be pro-war consistent with UU values. It has nothing to do with creed.Freewheelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05882672545710899282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-28490069680418428572007-10-19T08:47:00.000-04:002007-10-19T08:47:00.000-04:00Robin, you might want to join this discussion in t...Robin, you might want to join this discussion in the followup post where we've fielded a lot of that. <BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-36379658628276358502007-10-18T21:23:00.000-04:002007-10-18T21:23:00.000-04:00Do you deny that the Seven Principles of U*Uism ar...Do you deny that the Seven Principles of U*Uism are a system, doctrine, or formula of religious belief, as of the Uncommon Denomination CC? Are they not a system or codification of belief or of opinion of U*Us? Are they not an authoritative, formulated statement of the chief articles of Unitarian*Universalist belief aka a U*U system of belief, principles, or opinions?Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-86577443212234529872007-10-18T09:07:00.000-04:002007-10-18T09:07:00.000-04:00I responded to this in a post, essentially, you ca...I responded to this in a post, essentially, you can't have your belief defined by a document that specifically says that nothing in it can be construed to get in the way of freedom of belief. <BR/><BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-90422970546034940172007-10-18T07:51:00.000-04:002007-10-18T07:51:00.000-04:00I suggest that CC and other U*Us who do not believ...I suggest that CC and other U*Us who do not believe that the Seven Principles of U*Uism, to say nothing of other formal statements of beliefs and ideals of U*Uism, are not a creed should look up <A HREF="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/creed" REL="nofollow">the definition of the word "creed"</A> in a good dictionary or two. . .Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-17610635479645179122007-10-17T19:51:00.000-04:002007-10-17T19:51:00.000-04:00I covenant on Sundays; I don't profess a creed.Bei...I covenant on Sundays; I don't profess a creed.<BR/><BR/><EM>Being desirous of promoting practical goodness in the world, and aiding each other in our moral and religious improvement, we have associated ourselves together: - not as agreeing in opinion, - not as having attained universal truth in belief or perfection in character, but as seekers after Truth & Goodness. </EM><BR/><BR/>It's a good covenant and I think if you try to live it, you have a pretty good sense of what a creedless faith is about.<BR/><BR/>And I do mean live it, it's something understood best through practice.Bill Baarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07095486926836836714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-39170840563927623072007-10-17T16:40:00.000-04:002007-10-17T16:40:00.000-04:00By the way,I am not sure if my comment about accep...By the way,<BR/><BR/>I am not sure if my comment about accepting the P&P as a creed, chucking them out, or renaming them was clear enough.<BR/><BR/>I was being quite facetious.Alex Winnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01702527454746459193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-40771795685841278962007-10-17T16:36:00.000-04:002007-10-17T16:36:00.000-04:00The great Irony/Paradox-We are a creedless faith. ...The great Irony/Paradox-<BR/><BR/>We are a creedless faith. And yet, we have a set of Principles, Purposes and a source of tradition.<BR/><BR/>creed (krēd) pronunciation<BR/>n.<BR/><BR/> 1. A formal statement of religious belief; a confession of faith.<BR/> 2. A system of belief, *principles*, or opinions.<BR/>(From the American Heritage Dictionary)<BR/><BR/>So, we either recognize our Principles and Purposes as a creed; call them something else; Or we abandon them completely.<BR/><BR/>A sticky wicket.<BR/><BR/>But I think the actual point is the process of discernment in a free faith. And that is a much bigger question.<BR/><BR/>The hardest part for many folks when it comes to the P&P is the fact that they apply to every one.<BR/><BR/>If I get a free and responsible search for truth and meaning-then so should you.<BR/><BR/>Democratic process requires your voice heard just as much as mine.<BR/><BR/>Peace and justice is never a one way street.Alex Winnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01702527454746459193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-11326758474932625292007-10-17T15:32:00.000-04:002007-10-17T15:32:00.000-04:00People only know the churches they live near. The...People only know the churches they live near. The UUA can have a thriving Christian organization, lots of Christian members, hell, Elaine Pagels at GA, but if Church A is still pretty humanist, the people who live hear church A are going to see UUism as insufficiently Christian. <BR/><BR/>Which functionally it is, as far as those people are concerned. <BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-20430155741055179822007-10-17T14:49:00.000-04:002007-10-17T14:49:00.000-04:00A creedless faith is not natural?I'd say creedalis...A creedless faith is not natural?<BR/><BR/>I'd say creedalism a pretty Christian notion. I'm not scholar of religions but I'm guessing few other faiths have offerend as many long creeds as Christianity has.<BR/><BR/>UUism as anti-organized religion?<BR/><BR/>I'd say it's just the opposite. The two Churches I've belonged too having been well run, well organized Churches. <BR/><BR/>The students we've interned from ML well versed in program management.<BR/><BR/>Now I've blonged to some Catholic Churches and while being much larger, and having larger budgets and facilities... have done a dismal job of policing their staff, managing their programs.Bill Baarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07095486926836836714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1461692369768467032007-10-17T13:38:00.000-04:002007-10-17T13:38:00.000-04:00That people want or feel that they need a creed do...That people want or feel that they need a creed does not make the seven principles a creed, particularly one that can be used to decide that other people are hypocrites for not following the principles as a creed, which they are not required to do in the first place.<BR/><BR/>More simply, I can call your brown eyes blue if I want to, but that doesn't mean that you're colorblind if you still think they are brown. <BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-39760323906789520182007-10-17T12:39:00.000-04:002007-10-17T12:39:00.000-04:00Chalice Chick,I KNOW where your frustration stems ...Chalice Chick,<BR/><BR/>I KNOW where your frustration stems from and I sympathize. Allow me to muster up as much eloquence as I can to respond to this post the best way I possibly can. <BR/><BR/>The Seven Principles are not a creed, plain and simple. However, I see a creedless faith the same way I see a strict separation between church and state. Neither exist naturally and there will always be a need to keep the two from co-mingling in spite of our own best intentions. <BR/><BR/>People like yours truly who were raised in a faith with creeds and came to find them repulsive will often be constantly on guard to seek out anything that remotely comes across as one. These days, though, I've come to accept creeds as one of those inevitable things about religion that makes me slightly uncomfortable but I can't do anything about. <BR/> <BR/>UUism was set forth as the anti-organized religion and has become one in spite of itself. Perhaps this was inevitable. <BR/><BR/>I have proposed pet issues in past, but I'm not inclined to do so right now. At my own blog, I do welcome contrary points of view, but I do have to curb my sensitivity to criticism and see them as constructive, rather than destructive. <BR/><BR/>I see the Seven Principles as a response to people who wanted to have something concrete as a point of reference. UUism is, you must admit, a highly abstract faith.Comrade Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11393718048145784837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-59407095921306652442007-10-17T11:31:00.000-04:002007-10-17T11:31:00.000-04:00Creedless churches aren't for everyone. I'm not su...Creedless churches aren't for everyone. I'm not sure why people who really want an objective standard seek out a church where, as far as I know, people never had one. (I'm assuming Fausto will correct me on this one.)<BR/><BR/>At the same time, even object standards require interpretation, so in general declaring people bad isn't a good idea. <BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-46573554077175330302007-10-16T18:44:00.000-04:002007-10-16T18:44:00.000-04:00It's not that funny Bill.There are serious issues ...It's not that funny Bill.<BR/><BR/>There are serious issues involved and I am very much in favor of having some objective standards to measure people with. . .<BR/><BR/>More later. I have <A HREF="http://robinedgar.stumbleupon.com" REL="nofollow">other priorities</A> right now.Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-78938016134813951112007-10-16T16:35:00.000-04:002007-10-16T16:35:00.000-04:00LOLhave a good day CC.LOL<BR/><BR/>have a good day CC.Bill Baarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07095486926836836714noreply@blogger.com