tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post2888894384332353288..comments2023-10-24T05:49:04.269-04:00Comments on The Chaliceblog: Hanging out as a Spiritual PracticeChalicechickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-59348853903082743712010-02-21T09:10:08.058-05:002010-02-21T09:10:08.058-05:00Anonymous--
Morales' statement specifically r...Anonymous--<br /><br />Morales' statement specifically refers to "children, youth, and young adults" as his audience for this message, so yeah, I think he IS talking about youth. <br /><br />Besides, if our children, youth and young adults are doing their "hanging out" in bars, we have bigger problems than sloth. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-64749006707346973452010-02-20T18:28:31.455-05:002010-02-20T18:28:31.455-05:00...i think it's a matter of understanding inte......i think it's a matter of understanding intent. I think 'hanging out' to youth... is different than the 'hanging out' Peter was talking about.<br /><br />I can see a difference between going to a bar with friends, watching bad television, etc. ...and talking with my friends about beliefs, opinions, politics, etc.<br /><br />...one is passive, one is active. Both are 'hanging out'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-74324263180432128702009-11-23T21:52:13.533-05:002009-11-23T21:52:13.533-05:00I don't consider it to be a waste of my time, ...I don't consider it to be a waste of my time, or anyone else's time, to remind U*Us about how some of UUA President Peter Morales' "irritatingly dismissive", or otherwise questionable, sweeping statements do not reflect well on the U*U religiosu community as a whole. Ditto for the "irritatingly dismissive" or otherwise thoughtless, questionable, or indeed outright insulting and defamatory words of too many other U*U religious leaders, and prominent lay leaders. I have yet to hear UUA President Morales responsibly acknowledge that he kind of put his foot in it and "recalibrate" his words about those alleged "obsolete religions". Have you?Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-2383519642458836722009-11-23T18:40:02.034-05:002009-11-23T18:40:02.034-05:00When you focus on the wrong thing, yo derail your ...When you focus on the wrong thing, yo derail your message and waste everyone's time.Chalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-302877270887800002009-11-23T18:11:04.791-05:002009-11-23T18:11:04.791-05:00Of course I expect that a good number of U*Us cons...Of course I expect that a good number of U*Us consider Rev. Peter Morales' perhaps unwittingly dismissive yet none-the-less quite insightful description of Unitarian*Universalism as "a tiny, declining, fringe religion" to be just a tad irritating too. . . especially since it is an all too truthful and accurate a description of the current status of what I now have quite a bit of fun "name*calling" *The* Tiny Declining Fringe Religion™ :-)<br /><br />Please accept my apologies for <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBcKVECSPkc" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">hanging around</a> a bit. Hopefully I haven't worn out my welcome here. ;-)<br /><br />Do give The Emerson Avenger's regards to your Youth Group the next time you hang out with them.Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-62666463749010508302009-11-23T17:19:48.810-05:002009-11-23T17:19:48.810-05:00I kind of expect nuance from my religious leaders....<em>I kind of expect nuance from my religious leaders.</em><br /><br />Nuance is tough to lead with... focus is usually the need.<br /><br />I think that's what Morales is doing here..focusing.Bill Baarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07095486926836836714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-41506004005419768502009-11-23T16:15:33.234-05:002009-11-23T16:15:33.234-05:00I agree that Rev. Morales' statement was "...I agree that Rev. Morales' statement was "was irritatingly dismissive" as you put it CC. I am well acquainted with U*U religious leaders making "irritatingly dismissive" statements of various kinds, including some very "sweeping" ones that may be properly described as blanket condemnations. In fact some U*U clergy and U*U lay leaders have made a number of irritatingly dismissive staements to my face in the last couple of weeks. . . Of course this was by no means the first or indeed worst "irritatingly dismissive" sweeping statement that Rev. Peter Morales has made recently. It is hard to top the following well-documented words of Rev. Peter Morales in the "irritatingly dismissive" sweeping statements department but do feel free to try to one up me on that. . . I would eb all ears.<br /><br />"We live in dark times, times filled with hatred, injustice, prejudice, ignorance.<br />Sadly, *obsolete religions* created for another time contribute to the darkness." <br /><br />That's right Peter all those *other* "old religions" you dismissed in your '<a href="http://www.firstunitarian.net/publications/sermon/sermon.050309.pdf" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">Religion For A New America</a>' "stump speech" announcing your candidacy for UUA President, are "obsolete". You know the ones, those "old religions" that "lead to tribalism, violence, suspicion, hatred, and oppression." Of course U*Us are completely above saying and doing things that lead to tribalism, violence, suspicion, hatred, and oppression. U*Us can't possibly be guilty of any hatred, injustice, prejudice, or ignorance. <br /><br />Right Peter? <br /><br />God forbid. . .Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-25939387630495856652009-11-23T13:47:55.438-05:002009-11-23T13:47:55.438-05:00((((Bottom line, after reading your post I did app...((((Bottom line, after reading your post I did appreciate more the problem with the sweeping nature of Morales's statement than I did when I first read him.)))<br /><br />Yeah, it's the lack of nuance that gets to me. <br /><br />I kind of expect nuance from my religious leaders. <br /><br />I don't question that action is important, indeed my youth group does a great deal of it and is thriving because we do combine action and hanging out. <br /><br />But the original statement was irritatingly dismissive. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-36981072774048326172009-11-23T12:59:36.295-05:002009-11-23T12:59:36.295-05:00First of all, my own work with youth has been limi...First of all, my own work with youth has been limited to OWL, which is a highly structured program (but still allows for some "hanging out" kinds of conversations). I commend you, CC, and others, for the time and energy you put into larger YRUU efforts.<br /><br />Second, I agree with you (although I've not been fortunate to witness it the way you have) that unstructured hanging out and talking about stuff can be an important part of spiritual development and practice. I think you're correct to challenge Morales' sweeping statement on that score.<br /><br />But third, when I read that column in its original context, I read it through the eyes of a young friend who dropped out of a local YRUU group while remaining very active in regional and national YRUU activities. Why?<br /><br />Because for that young person, <i>hanging out is all it is</i> at the local level. My friend's cohort has shown little or no interest in service experiences that my friend would find more substantive, and after trying to generate some energy around that, my friend gave up. There seemed to be, at the time, ineffective adult leadership regarding youth in that particular church. <br /><br />Bottom line, after reading your post I did appreciate more the problem with the sweeping nature of Morales's statement than I did when I first read him. But I still think he raises a really valid point about the importance of challenging youth to undertake service in some form.<br /><br />A lot of those "hanging out" conversations can still take place while people are doing something that is taking them beyond themselves. The same could be said of adults. If we believe in "Deeds, Not Creeds," then we need to give people the opportunity to do some Deeds.DairyStateDadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09100373589936758473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-13024392986164248612009-11-23T11:51:41.957-05:002009-11-23T11:51:41.957-05:00What?
You don't think that my ongoing "...What? <br /><br />You don't think that my ongoing "alternative spiritual practice" of "hanging out" in front of the Unitarian Church of Montreal, to say nothing of 25 Beacon Street in Boston, the 2002 UUA GA in Quebec City, and the UUMA Convocation in Ottawa last weekend, is intended to speak to U*U youth as much as aging and dwindling U*Us who arte well on their way to quite literally being corpse-cold Unitarians CC? I will have U*Us know that the Unitarian Church of Montreal once blamed me for the loss of their Youth Group and I expect that my protest in front of the Unitarian Church of Montreal was indeed a contributing factor to the UCM losing its Youth Group a while back. For the record a young woman came out of the Unitarian Church of Montreal on Saturday night as I was protesting during its "social event of the season aka its largest annual fundraising event "BidNite" and brought me out a bag of clementines and a ginger cookie as a goodwill gesture. Be assured that my ongoing "alternative spiritual practice" of "hanging out" with U*Us in "real life" and the not so virtual reality of the internet is a feature of *my* youth work because, quite frankly. . . old U*Us like U*U COP are quite evidently unable to learn new tricks. Thankfully most of these corpse-cold Unitarians won't be around in another decade or two. . . Of course, the way things are going, there will not be many U*U youth to replace these corpe-cold Unitarians and Unitarian*Univeralism will be an even tinier, declinier, and fringier religion than UUA President Peter Morales already acknowledges that it is. . .Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-82560809219016887462009-11-23T10:44:09.716-05:002009-11-23T10:44:09.716-05:00Let's keep the conversation on hanging out as ...Let's keep the conversation on hanging out as a feature of youth work.<br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-39663631790028541602009-11-23T10:38:33.200-05:002009-11-23T10:38:33.200-05:00Bill,
Nobody's talking about it as a marketi...Bill, <br /><br />Nobody's talking about it as a marketing effort. As you observe, we can't really market to teens since it is usually their parents who pick the church. <br /><br />It's all about keeping youth who are already attending the church. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-31903871654144733102009-11-23T10:35:28.125-05:002009-11-23T10:35:28.125-05:00:That aside, though, I still think the Reverend Mo...:That aside, though, I still think the Reverend Morales is incorrect when he writes that "Hanging out is not a spiritual practice."<br /><br />Well I happen to think that my "hanging out" in front of the Unitarian Church of Montreal is a form of spiritual practice and have been referring to my ongoing protest against U*U injustices, abuses, and hypocrisy of various kinds as my "alternative spiritual practice" ever since an insightful Unitarian*Universalist minister used that phrase to describe my protest.Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-59518481771866688302009-11-23T10:33:04.377-05:002009-11-23T10:33:04.377-05:00It's hard to market hanging out. If you want ...It's hard to market hanging out. If you want to grow the Church, then you want some efforts that attract parents to bring there gets to Church. Habitat for humanity served that roll for my family.<br /><br />It's getting carried away with the marketing that will do us in though, if we overlook the spiritual practice that occurs with just hanging out.Bill Baarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07095486926836836714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-51610245085351484452009-11-23T10:00:06.893-05:002009-11-23T10:00:06.893-05:00This reminds me of a discussion Elizabeth and I ha...This reminds me of a discussion <a href="http://elizabethslittleblog.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/the-uua-presidential-election-and-the-point-of-our-faith/" rel="nofollow">Elizabeth</a> and I had about the need for a church to help its own people as well as others. As you have noted here, hanging out- with the meaningful discussions that result- does exactly that. <br /><br />I had said that was why I was supporting Laurel, because it sounded to me like Rev. Morales was saying (like Chuck and David in the discussion mentioned above) that all the church's efforts should be directed outwards, writing off all internal examination as navel-gazing. "Hanging out is not a spiritual practice" demonstrates that attitude.Joel Monkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10631333436948102576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-41763562859326749562009-11-23T09:27:49.384-05:002009-11-23T09:27:49.384-05:00Chalicechick says: (((IMHO, if the youth come to r...Chalicechick says: (((IMHO, if the youth come to really love doing charitable work through their time as a UU, that's great, but they certainly won't have to come back to UUism to do it as an adult.)))<br /><br />The problem is that UU churches seem to think that social action is the only way to engage their youth. That is only one part of being part of a church. I found a need for spiritual engagement with your kids, and started a teen small group this year, where we do small group ministry topics that coincide loosely with the monthly worship themes and what the adults are doing in their small groups. <br /><br />We have only met twice, but I was just blown away - it's very intentional but has a lot of flexibility built in to honor their age. Kids want a spiritual connection, not just to be put to work (even if it's good and valuable work). <br /><br />((Thia whole thing makes me worry about President Morales as it is one more example of him making a declaration about something he doesn't understand.))<br /><br />As a former journalist myself, I was surprised to see this particular line in his article - as a journalist, Morales certainly has a deep appreciation for the power of words. I hope that he is able to clarify his meaning!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288925493907687573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-22805874556185534312009-11-23T09:06:57.983-05:002009-11-23T09:06:57.983-05:00I suppose the problem is when no one hangs out at ...I suppose the problem is when no one hangs out at all, which is the problem I've run into within Quaker meeting. It's tough to criticize not doing when not showing up very often is a greater issue.Comrade Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11393718048145784837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-7229666289392873632009-11-23T08:47:11.300-05:002009-11-23T08:47:11.300-05:00(((I think we all need to focus on the fact that w...(((I think we all need to focus on the fact that we lose most of our youth and that there is something critical not happening. I think that is the spirit of what Peter Morales was talking about.)))<br /><br />IMHO, if the youth come to really love doing charitable work through their time as a UU, that's great, but they certainly won't have to come back to UUism to do it as an adult. <br /><br />Every church has problems retaining young people. IMHO, the churches that have the fewest of them are those churches where the young people feel a sense of connection to one another and to the faith.<br />When they are older, they are going to want that again. <br /><br />That connection is built through things like hanging out. <br /><br />Thia whole thing makes me worry about President Morales as it is one more example of him making a declaration about something he doesn't understand. He has never struck me as a particularly thoughtful or careful speaker, and now he's speaking for us all.<br /> <br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-45728451494053893302009-11-23T06:47:07.681-05:002009-11-23T06:47:07.681-05:00Over the years I have encountered plenty of youth ...Over the years I have encountered plenty of youth "just hanging out" in the more casual, not so spiritually charged way -- something I can see fueling a generalization. The youth group I worked with for a decade, if you asked the youth, just hung out each Sunday and talked. But we had a chalice lighting, check in, discussed "deep and profound mongo cosmic questions" and then checked out. So deep and spiritual it motivated me to spend the last ten years helping adults do the same. We call it small group ministry now. Here's the catch... In many youth groups - and if you're commenting here yours probably rocks - and way too many adult small group ministries there is a failure to lead the group(s) in such a way that the exploration of meaning and purpose is transformed into inspired action. I've seen just hanging out groups, and I've seen inspiring spiritual and worshipful groups. Across the age spans there is a spectrum of "depth" - whatever you want to call it. I think we all need to focus on the fact that we lose most of our youth and that there is something critical not happening. I think that is the spirit of what Peter Morales was talking about.Peter Bowdenhttp://uugrowth.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-35541784401236015292009-11-22T23:00:47.678-05:002009-11-22T23:00:47.678-05:00(((Next thing ya know, he'll be sayin' cof...(((Next thing ya know, he'll be sayin' coffee hour doesn't count either. Sigh.)))<br /><br />If adults had the kinds of conversations at coffee hour that the youth have when they are hanging out, I would be willing to call coffee hour a spiritual practice. <br /><br />Adults, don't, though. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-11892408897501275442009-11-22T22:54:27.450-05:002009-11-22T22:54:27.450-05:00What's the difference between psychological an...What's the difference between psychological and spiritual? (I ask this because someone once asked me, though accusingly. I don't intend this accusingly, I just want to know what you'll say.)kimchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14020798623317549440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-29886967770883738352009-11-22T22:23:43.351-05:002009-11-22T22:23:43.351-05:00The Italians have a phrase: "The sweetness of...The Italians have a phrase: "The sweetness of doing nothing."<br /><br />In reality, we never really "do nothing." We're <i>always</i> doing something, even when we give a low judgement to its worth.<br /><br />What, then. makes "doing nothing" sweet? When it provides room for the sense of connection and clarity our spirits all crave.Desmond Ravenstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11731355272768955344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-3084811913876144572009-11-22T21:35:16.342-05:002009-11-22T21:35:16.342-05:00Gotta say, I think you nailed it. When I was in h...Gotta say, I think you nailed it. When I was in high school, hanging out with the UU youth group was very much a spiritual practice. It's no hyperbole to say it was as nourishing as anything I got from Sunday services during the same period.Transient and Permanenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03562814236709032104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-5979375306904858832009-11-22T20:58:42.033-05:002009-11-22T20:58:42.033-05:00I think hanging out with youth is a spiritual prac...I think hanging out with youth is a spiritual practice. It takes patience, quiet, empathy, and did I mention patience? And a presence. And empathy, did I mention empathy?<br /><br />When I read Morales' article, that sentence jumped out at me and irritated the heck out of me. <br /><br />I have worked with teens for years, and hanging out is a good way to connect with them and just as valuable as social justice sometimes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288925493907687573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1193161515957613882009-11-22T20:45:44.897-05:002009-11-22T20:45:44.897-05:00Next thing ya know, he'll be sayin' coffee...Next thing ya know, he'll be sayin' coffee hour doesn't count either. Sigh.Wilson Wondershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04979032830890830392noreply@blogger.com