tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post114893752960484144..comments2023-10-24T05:49:04.269-04:00Comments on The Chaliceblog: Mixed feelings on the term "economic refugee"Chalicechickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1149090412589402932006-05-31T11:46:00.000-04:002006-05-31T11:46:00.000-04:00"economic refugees" doesn't point to businesses th..."economic refugees" doesn't point to businesses that hire them, but it also doesn't cut them out of the equation the way the "immigrant" collection does. If you can improve on "economic refugees", that's fine. The consensus of people who work with the subtle meanings of words for a living is that "undocumented worker" isn't better. <BR/>OK, the difference between "spin" and "framing" is that when you call it spin you sound condescending and superior, like you don't approve of it, and you're "above" it. Whereas, when it's called "framing" it has some utility and scientific backing. So, the difference is the "spin" on the words. But, it still means something: it's much like the people who, when you ask how they are, in the common ritualized way of meaning a bit more than hello, but nothing personal, will not answer "fine" because it isn't strictly honest -- i.e. they don't get the meaning of the ritual is indeed the ritual rather than the literal meaning. That position may be factually true but misses the point, and is an immature and naive viewpoint. (I used to have that viewpoint myself, long ago.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1149046086620095052006-05-30T23:28:00.000-04:002006-05-30T23:28:00.000-04:00I don't see how "refugees" in any way puts the foc...I don't see how "refugees" in any way puts the focus on US businesses, either. The whole point of the phrase "economic refugees" is to put a melodramatic spin on the poverty the average non-legal worker faces. I have some sympathy for that, but nothing about the phrase suggests American businesses are doing anything wrong. If anything else, it implies that American businesses are heroically shetering the refugees. <BR/><BR/>It seems to me that the solution for businesses is to use the laws we have and crack down. I think the advertisements in Mexico are best used as a guide for which companies to scrutinize. There's not much we can do to get them to take them down other than to catch them at it and fine them so heavily that hiring these folks isn't profitable. (That won't do a damn thing for the workers' quality of life, of course, which is why I think just about anything we do in America is a band-aid)<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure how the minimum wage is the problem. The illegal construction workers here make about $15 per hour, well above the minimum wage in VA. A guy I know wanted some guys to do some landscaping at his house and went to the parking lot where our local bunch of non-legal workers hang out. Nobody would look at him for less than ten bucks an hour. <BR/><BR/>AS for "The point of framing is that the words you use shape the answer you come up with," all I can say is that the point of spin is exactly the same. <BR/><BR/>Note how "Youthful indescretion" sounds a lot less threatening than "drunk driving arrest."<BR/><BR/>WOuld that be spin? Framing?<BR/><BR/>I'd say both.<BR/><BR/>CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1149041973035966862006-05-30T22:19:00.000-04:002006-05-30T22:19:00.000-04:00Undocumented worker? Did you read the whole paper...Undocumented worker? Did you read the whole paper about it? Have you read any of Lakoff's books?<BR/>"undocumented worker" keeps the problem focused on the workers, but a big part of the problem is the businesses that hire them, and that phrase cuts that part of it out. Another part is our governments policies. Another part is minimum wage. Another part of it is that American companies actually advertise in Mexico encouraging workers to come here illegally -- why shouldn't they be responsible for that? And then there's the issue of what the heck is Mexico doing about all this, if anything? The point of framing is that the words you use shape the answer you come up with. It's more than spin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1148950890856928302006-05-29T21:01:00.000-04:002006-05-29T21:01:00.000-04:00We could advocate economic sanctions and foreign a...We could advocate economic sanctions and foreign aid as easily as we advocate various immigration laws, I'm guessing. <BR/><BR/>Sadly, I think the government IS listening to the citizens here, they <A HREF="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/07/opinion/polls/main763687.shtml" REL="nofollow">just don't agree with you and me.</A><BR/><BR/>CC<BR/><BR/>Who thinks that "undocumented worker" is ok, she guesses.Chalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1148948543806677562006-05-29T20:22:00.000-04:002006-05-29T20:22:00.000-04:00Oh, by the way, do you have a better term to sugge...Oh, by the way, do you have a better term to suggest than "economic refugees"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1148948437593910042006-05-29T20:20:00.000-04:002006-05-29T20:20:00.000-04:00That's more or less what we have been saying all a...That's more or less what we have been saying all along -- if Mexico's economy were improved, there'd be no problem. What can we do to help Mexico's economy? I own two lots in San Felipe, which has 0% unemployment, due to the influx of Americans because of the development of El Dorado Ranch. If we ever get enough money to build a house there, we will further help the Mexican economy. Not much else I can do, since our government no longer listens to citizens.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com