tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post112627951843689856..comments2023-10-24T05:49:04.269-04:00Comments on The Chaliceblog: Yes, I meant it about the religious wing of the Democratic partyChalicechickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1128547118323831722005-10-05T17:18:00.000-04:002005-10-05T17:18:00.000-04:00I'm one of those people who aren't thrilled with h...I'm one of those people who aren't thrilled with how the Washington Office is operating. But rather than just gripe, here's something I like. I came across the UUSC blog today and was impressed. It's much more even-keeled than some of the Washington stuff, and it takes the time to explain the issues to me as a UU and suggest why they might have an impact on me or need addressing due to our shared moral values. Here's the link: <A HREF="http://www.uusc.org/blog/hotwire.html" REL="nofollow">http://www.uusc.org/blog/hotwire.html</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127222400386819592005-09-20T09:20:00.000-04:002005-09-20T09:20:00.000-04:00Steve, you also say:In other words, I would sugges...Steve, you also say:<BR/><BR/><I>In other words, I would suggest that the main body of Unitarianism reconciled itself with the "schismatics and dissenters" ... not the other way around.</I><BR/><BR/>What I said was that the dissident factions "did not reconcile with the main denomination until early in the 20th century". I didn't mean to imply that either side subordinated its position to the other. There were separate parties with differences between themselves, who suppressed their differences in order to emphasize their common ground, much as the Unitarians and Universalists did more recently.<BR/><BR/>When you say, "it looks like these 'schismatics and dissenters' blazed a trail for the main body of Unitarianism to follow", I don't think they thought themselves to be doing so at the time. They thought themselves to be standing in contrast to the consensus rather than leading it. I would agree that elements of what was the dissenting position 120 years ago have become dominant more recently, but I agree with PeaceBang that we are poorer if the consequence of that is to treat what has until recently been our primary religious heritage with neglect and even contempt, as if it offers nothing of value to us today. That side of our heritage remains as enriching and available, and can still speak with as much effective moral power, to us today as it did to our predecessors. Once upon a time we used it fully, and when we did we became the head and heart of the nation. <BR/><BR/>When we don't, what do we become? The UUAWO and some obscure GA resolutions (that even most of our own members aren't aware of, as you correctly point out).faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127213680762114632005-09-20T06:54:00.000-04:002005-09-20T06:54:00.000-04:00No, in this case it doesn't "all depend on point o...No, in this case it doesn't "all depend on point of view". It's not a subjective matter of opinion; it's a matter of objective historical fact.<BR/><BR/>Objectively, factually, they were schismatics and dissenters. Both sides of the controversy agreed on that point.<BR/><BR/>Objectively, factually, the rift did not heal and the opposing factions did not fully reconcile until the 20th century.<BR/><BR/>Objectively, factually, the orientation that called itself "Humanism" became organized and foi=und its voice in the 1930's. The first Religious Humanists considered themselves rebels and prophets of a new religious vision, not keepers of a long-established tradition.<BR/><BR/>Objectively, factually, "Humanism" became a significant influence in Unitarian (and later, Unitarian Universalist) thought only in the twentieth century, not before. Objectively, factually, it is a relatively recent, rather than long-standing and traditional, UU phenomenon. Objectively, factually, its contribution to the UU experience is measured in decades, not centuries.<BR/><BR/>I'll agree with you that Humanism is "not just a 20th Century UU fad," but objectively, factually, you're the only one here who has spoken of it as just a fad. What PeaceBang actually said in the comment you were responding to was, "We need to stop avoiding our Biblical and classical theological heritage and teach HOW liberal political commitments have origins in our actual religious heritage, and not just in liberal humanism." You yourself said nearly the same thing when you said, "[O]ur UCC cousins may provide some examples to help us. One of the UCC supplements for the Our Whole Lives program talks about meeting the world with a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other hand." <BR/><BR/>When you incorrectly attribute things to people that they didn't in fact say in order to rebut them, that's a straw man argument.faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127182197506773752005-09-19T22:09:00.000-04:002005-09-19T22:09:00.000-04:00Fausto wrote:-snip-"I'll agree with Steve that ele...Fausto wrote:<BR/>-snip-<BR/><I>"I'll agree with Steve that elements of what later came to be labeled "Religious Humanism" were present in the 19th century ... "</I><BR/><BR/>-snip-<BR/><I>"However, those groups were largely composed of schismatics and dissenters from what was then organized mainstream Unitarianism."</I><BR/><BR/>The funny thing here is the "schismatics and dissenters" in one generation are often claimed by the mainstream in later generations.<BR/><BR/>For example, Theodore Parker was asked to the leave the Boston Association of Congregational Ministers because his views were considered dissident. After 1846, the Unitarian Year Book stopped including Parker's name in the listing of Unitarian clergy due to his theology.<BR/><BR/>Emerson's views were called "the latest form of infidelity" by Andrews Norton of Harvard Divinity School.<BR/><BR/>However, dissident voices like Emerson and Parker from the past are claimed by the present-day mainstream of Unitarian Universalism.<BR/><BR/>Then Fausto wrote:<BR/><I>" ... they deliberately stood in opposition to it, and they did not reconcile with the main denomination until early in the 20th century."</I><BR/><BR/>It all depends on point of view.<BR/><BR/>Rather than suggesting that the "schismatics and dissenters" reconciled themselves with the main body of Unitarianism, it looks like these "schismatics and dissenters" blazed a trail for the main body of Unitarianism to follow.<BR/><BR/>In other words, I would suggest that the main body of Unitarianism reconciled itself with the "schismatics and dissenters" ... not the other way around.Steve Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333184436301854794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127167967709198042005-09-19T18:12:00.000-04:002005-09-19T18:12:00.000-04:00I'll agree with Steve that elements of what later ...I'll agree with Steve that elements of what later came to be labeled "Religious Humanism" were present in the 19th century, beginning with the Transcendentalists and more significantly with the Free Religion Association and the Western Unitarian Conference.<BR/><BR/>However, those groups were largely composed of schismatics and dissenters from what was then organized mainstream Unitarianism. They were not at that time a major force within the denomination; rather, they deliberately stood in opposition to it, and they did not reconcile with the main denomination until early in the 20th century. <BR/><BR/>To say that what we refer to today as "Religious Humanism" existed before the Humanist Manifesto is akin to saying that Unitarianism existed before Channing's Baltimore sermon. In both cases some of the gestational ideas may have been previously present, but in both cases it was the manifesto that brought the movement into full being.<BR/><BR/>Steve also asks how I would procedurally reform the GA. That's simple; I would use the current procedures to amend the rules and bylaws in order to create a more representative and therefore more legitimate process. I don't call for doing away with the GA; I think it serves a very valuable role for face-to-face discourse and for grappling with issues of concern. I just think it's a more useful and legitimate forum for raising questions of conscience than for ratifying pronouncements of conscience.<BR/><BR/>Arr, me bully tars, it still be Talk Like a Pirate Day, all day, arr.faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127166808954128772005-09-19T17:53:00.000-04:002005-09-19T17:53:00.000-04:00Fausto wrote:-snip-" ... the entire GA plenary pro...Fausto wrote:<BR/>-snip-<BR/><I>" ... the entire GA plenary process and the various resolutions and witnesses that issue from it are fundamentally suspect, due to deep flaws in the GA's representative process -- flaws that, IMO, necessarily invalidate our fifth principle as long as they continue to be followed."</I><BR/><BR/>I disagree that the current situation is as dire as you think it is.<BR/><BR/>The recommendations in the Social Witness Review Panel would be a good place to start:<BR/><BR/>http://www.uua.org/uuawo/new/downloads/swrp_finalreport.pdf<BR/><BR/>For sake of our discussion here, let's say that you're right about the current GA business being flawed beyond any hope of reform.<BR/><BR/>How would you propose reforming GA within the existing UUA bylaws and procedural rules structure that implicitly assume that the current business process isn't flawed and is still a legitimate process?<BR/><BR/>To correct what you see as a fatally flawed process, you would have to use what you're calling a flawed process to amend the existing bylaws.<BR/><BR/>And you would have to convince enough of the existing participants (who might have different view on the legitimacy of the existing business process than you do) that the business process needs reforming.Steve Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333184436301854794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127165164108681532005-09-19T17:26:00.000-04:002005-09-19T17:26:00.000-04:00Peacebang wrote:" Since when isn't Humanism classi...Peacebang wrote:<BR/><I>" Since when isn't Humanism classical, Steve? It's hardly a 20th century phenomenon. Ever heard of Erasmus?"</I><BR/><BR/>Please re-read what I wrote ... I said that Humanism wasn't a 20th century fad.<BR/><BR/>In the context of North American Unitarian Universalist history, we can see a move towards statements of faith that don't mention God or Jesus back in the 1800s in the Western Unitarian Conference.<BR/><BR/>The version of humanism that arose in Unitarian Universalism in the 20th century had its roots in the Western Unitarian Conference's 1886 statement that welcomed all who " ... wish to join [the conference] to help establish truth, righteousness, and love in the world."<BR/><BR/>At this point in our history, our religious movement grounded in the Protestant tradition had moved to a place where Christianity and theism were no longer mandatory requirements for inclusion.Steve Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333184436301854794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127135277305581792005-09-19T09:07:00.000-04:002005-09-19T09:07:00.000-04:00Since when isn't Humanism classical, Steve? It's h...<I>Since when isn't Humanism classical, Steve? It's hardly a 20th century phenomenon. Ever heard of Erasmus? </I><BR/><BR/>Within my own congregation, I'm on record suggesting that what the front of our sanctuary lacks are twin busts of Socrates and Zeno.faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127135137572653832005-09-19T09:05:00.000-04:002005-09-19T09:05:00.000-04:00I was trying in my own arguments to keep a more na...I was trying in my own arguments to keep a more narrow focus on the inefficacy of the UUAWO's current mission to serve as an advocate for the political views of the whole denomination, but I do also agree with the CSO and PeaceBang that the entire GA plenary process and the various resolutions and witnesses that issue from it are fundamentally suspect, due to deep flaws in the GA's representative process -- flaws that, IMO, necessarily invalidate our fifth principle as long as they continue to be followed. As a representative body the GA delegates do not possess anything like the legitimacy of, say, the Continental Congress; they're not even anywhere near the Electoral College. <BR/><BR/>I don't think any resolution of any GA should be considered valid unless and until (1) it has been submitted to the congregations for ratification; (2) it has been approved by a strict majority of all congregations in good standing, in each instance (3) by a formal resolution supported by a strict majority vote (not merely a quorum) of every subscribed congregational member; and (4) the aggregate number of supporting votes across all congregations also constitutes a majority of the aggregate membership of all congregations. <BR/><BR/>Any compelling collective moral position ought to be able to stir up enough passion to command the support of both a simple majority of the members of each congregation and a simple majority of the members of the UUA as a whole. If it can't, that reveals that the proposition is not in fact as broadly compelling as a self-selected quorum of particularly zealous "GA junkies" might deem it to be. Anything less than true majority affirmation is a canard, and when we settle for anything less we render our profession of the Fifth Principle a hypocritical sham.faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127094349362081632005-09-18T21:45:00.000-04:002005-09-18T21:45:00.000-04:00Since when isn't Humanism classical, Steve? It's h...Since when isn't Humanism classical, Steve? It's hardly a 20th century phenomenon. Ever heard of Erasmus?PeaceBanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431551457505981195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127093351563960272005-09-18T21:29:00.000-04:002005-09-18T21:29:00.000-04:00Peacebang wrote:"Well, again... who goes to GA? Pe...Peacebang wrote:<BR/><I>"Well, again... who goes to GA? People who can afford to, and people who are actually interested in plenaries and statements of conscience."</I><BR/><BR/>I agree that both economics and level of interest in denominational business both play a role in who volunteers and is selected to be a GA delegate.<BR/><BR/>As Peacebang observed, I've only attended 1 GA and I'm not passing myself off as an "expert" ... I'm just speaking from my personal experience from last summer.<BR/><BR/>The 2005 event was the first time in many years that GA was within affordable driving range for my family. I'm well aware of the "parenting and putting bread on the table" concerns that affect most UU households because they are my concerns as well as the primary wage-earner in my household.<BR/><BR/>I don't have the advantages of a "professional travel budget" like many ministers and other religious professionals have. If my family attends GA, it's a significant budget decision for us. But many of our called ministers do have professional expenses and delegate credentials at GA. Don't you think if the social justice business process at GA were out of whack, our called leaders would speak up?<BR/><BR/>For the record, I didn't ask for GA delegate credentialing. I contacted my congregation's board and suggested that our delegates should be chosen from our elected board representatives who are elected by the congregation and (in theory) are speaking on behalf of the congregation. However, if there were any unused delegate credentials, I would be willing to serve. Based on our congregation's size, we are authorized 3 layperson delegates and historically we have only sent 0 to 1 delegates in the past.<BR/><BR/>Since GA was only 3-4 hours by car from our congregation in 2005, I expected that elected leaders who were more qualified to speak on behalf of our congregation would be selected to be all of our GA delegates. However, that wasn't the case.<BR/><BR/>Our congregation's delegates were:<BR/><BR/>** our Congregational President (who should have been there since she's an elected representative of our congregation)<BR/><BR/>** a conservative UU who thinks the UUA has been taken over by "hippies" in light of our social justice work promoting marriage equality and other issues in the denomination<BR/><BR/>** myself, a liberal UU who thinks the current denominational social justice workings are generally OK, but thinks that the recommendations in the Commission on Social Witness Review Panel's report that would promote greater congregational involvement in the process and more in-depth exploration of a particular issue are worthwhile<BR/><BR/>Then Peacebang wrote:<BR/><I>"We need to stop avoiding our Biblical and classical theological heritage and teach HOW liberal political commitments have origins in our actual religious heritage, and not just in liberal humanism."</I><BR/><BR/>Gee ... I thought that liberal humanism was a part of our "actual" religious heritage. It's not just a 20th Century UU fad, but an outcome that happened incrementally over many years in North America.<BR/><BR/>The reason that we've arrived with a present-day Unitarian Universalism that emphasizes freedom of belief and humanism can be found in our roots in the Protestant Reformation with an emphasis on reason and one's own study of scripture.<BR/><BR/>I think we should look at other theological foundations for our social justice work that are consistent with our historical roots and our UCC cousins may provide some examples to help us. One of the UCC supplements for the Our Whole Lives program talks about meeting the world with a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other hand.<BR/><BR/>Given the news coverage in UU World, I suspect that most individual Unitarian Universalists who are aware of the current social justice business process are OK with the current social justice process. Occassionally, one sees letters to the editor that are critical. And occassionally, one hears complaints at the congregational level.<BR/><BR/>One also hears occassional complaints when one discovers that the UUA has taken a stand on an issue and the individual wasn't aware of it. For example, a member of our board thought the anti-death penalty rally at GA was inappropriate given his view social justice work might distract others from hearing our message. However, the UUA has been denominationally officially against the death penalty since 1961. This isn't a new development for us and should have been no surprise.<BR/><BR/>Generally, I'm in favor of any process improvements that increase congregational involvement in this work beyond the current level. And I'm also in favor of providing resources that speak from multiple theological perspectives on how a particular discussion may be grounded in our theologies to include Jewish and Christian heritage and our other sources as well.<BR/><BR/>For any conservative UUs who don't like being in a minority when it comes to social justice work, I feel the same thing from a liberal perspective within my congregation so I can offer my sympathies.<BR/><BR/>It does feel uncomfortable to be in the minority on social justice issues and I've often thought I might be better off attending the more liberal and more humanist Longview UU Fellowship instead of my own congregation.<BR/><BR/>But I would miss working with the youth in our congregation and I don't relish the thought of driving 70 miles each way to church just to find a better congregational fit.Steve Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333184436301854794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1127080590995247762005-09-18T17:56:00.000-04:002005-09-18T17:56:00.000-04:00Well, again... who goes to GA? People who can affo...Well, again... who goes to GA? People who can afford to, and people who are actually interested in plenaries and statements of conscience. Are our GA delegates generally acquainted with basic sources of Unitarian Universalist moral theology? Who knows, and apparently, who cares. Do these people actually discuss their GA agenda with their congregations? Let's not be naive. My ministerial signature on a piece of paper is not evidence of anything but, "Good, the Denominational Affairs committee found another lovely congregant who can afford to give up a week and go to this thing."<BR/><BR/>GA delegates are hardly representative. Steve himself has only been to ONE GA, and he apparently loves it! Parenting and putting bread on the table is actually more important to the majority of our people. Imagine that.<BR/><BR/>Referring back again and again to the sanctified-holiness GA delegate process to justify the UUWAO default far-left setting on every conceivable social issue just isn't helpful to the problem of how we can encourage a more mature, nuanced dialogue in our churches that won't make every political conservative feel like the Anti-Christ. We need to stop avoiding our Biblical and classical theological heritage and teach HOW liberal political commitments have origins in our actual religious heritage, and not just in liberal humanism.<BR/><BR/>Fausto's larger question about the utterly predictable, almost knee-jerk pronouncements coming out of the Washington Office hasn't been answered. But I like his idea that the Washington Office could be working for the congregations (novel!) rather than passing on ideas in that charming, enthusiastically coercive way they have.PeaceBanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431551457505981195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126906284038203102005-09-16T17:31:00.000-04:002005-09-16T17:31:00.000-04:00Well, part of the problem is that what we're calli...Well, part of the problem is that what we're calling a majority opinion may well be a plurality opinion because the process is so flawed.<BR/><BR/>And I do agree that "It is important for people to be mindful that although an opinion might be a majority opinion that does not mean it is the consensus opinion." That's why I oppose statements that neglect to even seriously mention and consider strong alternative viewpoints within the church - we should NOT be implying to the broader community that UUs are of one mind on these issues, and our current wording implies just that. It's kind of like that "void where prohibited" fine print on advertisements - most people just tune it out. If the UUA is to take official church positions on issues, those position statements need to have diversity of opinion as a central tenet. Burying an "individual conscience escape clause here" in what amounts to fine print doesn't even come close.<BR/><BR/>My reading of the SWPRP report is that it casts significant doubt on the integrity of the existing process, and thereby also on the results of that process. I don't see how you can doubt the integrity of a process, but not doubt the results.<BR/><BR/>See page 3: "Understanding that the Study/Action Issues which come to GA <BR/>may receive less than majority support (because they are selected from a large group of applicants), a <BR/>statement may arrive with only a fraction of our congregations having actively supported it!"<BR/><BR/>contribUUtor, I would welcome the improvements you list. To be more specific about the distinction between moral and political positions, I would like to see the moral position become primary. In cases where a political issue is intimately intertwined with a moral position on which we have taken a strong stand, it is then appropriate to take a political position rooted strongly and directly in the applicable moral position. <BR/><BR/>Steve, my complaint *is* with the UUA. If delegates at GA are allowed to instruct the UUA to make statements which run roughshod over minority opinions in the church, and the UUA does so, there's something seriously wrong there. Our governance structure just does not have the checks and balances it needs. Ideally, UUA leadership would serve as a check on the tendency of GA delegates to forget that a significant number of UUs don't have the exact same political platform as the Democratic Party, but under Sinkford that seems unlikely.<BR/><BR/>[Fausto's most recent post above is excellent and I heartily agree with the points made therein.]TheCSOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158667972488862686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126866371671609392005-09-16T06:26:00.000-04:002005-09-16T06:26:00.000-04:00Actually, it didn't require that much digging.The ...<I>Actually, it didn't require that much digging.</I><BR/><BR/>The point is not how much digging it required; the point is that they left it to their audience to dig it out in the first place. <BR/><BR/>A persuasive argument leads the listener to the conclusion that there is no other valid position, not to the question, "WTF, what planet do <I>they</I> come from? Maybe I'll give them another chance and crank up my browser and see what's on the Internet before I decide whether to ignore them."<BR/><BR/>Most people aren't going to bother doing the extra research. They're simply going to assume the position is no stronger than is sounds on first blush, and those who promote it are self-absorbed, self-righteous religious a**holes who are divorced from reality and get their jollies telling everyone else how bad they are. It's not as if there aren't plenty more of <I>those</I> types around.<BR/><BR/><I>Perhaps your complaint isn't really with "the UUA" but rather with your fellow Unitarian Universalists who have voted to approve Statements of Conscience and other resolutions that you don't approve of?</I><BR/><BR/>No, actually, I approve of the resolution and I support keeping the filibuster. AS I said above, I tend to agree with most of the UUAWO's political positions. <BR/><BR/>What I oppose is making frequent public moral statements on sensitive and controversial topics without also giving a persuasive moral justification. In this example, it would mean not only citing the GA resolution that relates to the position, but also giving a persuasive moral argument for the GA position, so everyone knows <I>why</I> the issue is morally compelling, and not just the result of some obscure procedural resolution in a forgotten conference somewhere. <BR/><BR/>The very worst examples are when (a) the position is an unpopular or unfamiliar one, in opposition to the public consensus or status quo, and (b) a compelling moral justification for the position does exist, but the UUAWO fails to articulate it. When that happens it forfeits a real opportunity to help shape and change public opinion. When it's done in the name of us UUs it makes the whole denomination look foolish. In the public mind we're no longer leading the forces of righteousness as we imagine ourselves to be; rather, we're lumped together with all the other strident religionists who have taken leave of their senses and their grounding in the real world to try to impose thir nutty religious absolutes on everyone else. We may think we're fighting the good fight against politico-religious nuts like Pat Roberson, but impartial bystanders think we're two sides of the same coin.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, but the UUAWO still earns an "F" in prophecy class. Even on this very assignment.faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126841955722738272005-09-15T23:39:00.000-04:002005-09-15T23:39:00.000-04:00http://www.uua.org/uuawo/new/article.php?list=type...http://www.uua.org/uuawo/new/article.php?list=type&type=104<BR/><BR/>Also on that page:<BR/>"This is new ground for the UUA and for the staff of the UUA Washington Office for Advocacy."<BR/><BR/>Which suggests to me that before 2004, this kind of thing was not done. So maybe CC isn't just imagining it.indraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05077014748902924745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126830316691135982005-09-15T20:25:00.000-04:002005-09-15T20:25:00.000-04:00Fausto wrote:"Thanks for digging that up, Steve. H...Fausto wrote:<BR/><I>"Thanks for digging that up, Steve. However, the fact that you had to do so, and then had to come up with your own independent argument as to how that related to the UUAWO's public statements, shows exactly what's wrong with the way UUAWO goes about things. Why can't the UUAWO do that for themselves?"</I><BR/><BR/>Actually, it didn't require that much digging.<BR/><BR/>You can get to the link between the GA resolution in two steps<BR/><BR/>(1) Go to the UUA Washington Office Home Page:<BR/><BR/>http://www.uua.org/uuawo/<BR/><BR/>(2) Click on the link labeled "UUAWO Judicial Nominations Webpage":<BR/>http://www.uua.org/uuawo/new/article.php?list=type&type=104<BR/><BR/>On this page, you will find the following quote:<BR/><BR/><B>"The Unitarian Universalist Association is authorized under the 2004 Statement of Conscience on Civil Liberties to 'oppose nominees to the federal appeals courts or the Supreme Court whose records demonstrate insensitivity to the protection of civil liberties.'"</B><BR/>http://www.uua.org/uuawo/new/article.php?list=type&type=104<BR/><BR/>This statement includes a link embedded in it to the 2004 Statement of Conscience.<BR/><BR/>It really isn't that hard to do. All it took was a brief cursory exploration of the UUA staff agency that you've been complaining about.<BR/><BR/>I'm surprised that you overlooked this easy to find bit of information about the UUA Washington Office.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps your complaint isn't really with "the UUA" but rather with your fellow Unitarian Universalists who have voted to approve Statements of Conscience and other resolutions that you don't approve of?<BR/><BR/>You see ... the UUA Washington Office is only doing what UUA member congregations have directed it to do after open and democratic decision-making at GA.Steve Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333184436301854794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126824947245620122005-09-15T18:55:00.000-04:002005-09-15T18:55:00.000-04:00Indrax: "I think a lot of people would be UU's if ...<I>Indrax: "I think a lot of people would be UU's if they knew who we are, and I don't think they get to know us, or what we should be, from our majority political views. ('great, a religion of democrats...')"</I><BR/><BR/>Any person is certainly more than their political views, so naturally it should follow that a denomination is certainly far more than it's majority political views. Also, I do think you get to know a person better by understanding their political views, than you would by simply staying silent on the subject. Similarly I think people do get a better idea of who UUs truly are if we do have Social Witness.<BR/><BR/>Along these lines, my spouse was officiating at marriages at a Gay Pride event and people were typically surprised to find out she was in fact representing a church. In those situations I think it is far more powerful for her to be able to say that yes indeed the UUA has stated supported for GLBT equality, than it would be to say "Gee I don't know about all UUs but I can tell you what I think."<BR/><BR/><I>TheCSO - "Just saying 'you're allowed to disagree with your church' does not absolve the church of a responsibility to not marginalize alternative views. And making one position on a hotly contested issue the 'official position of the UUA' *does* marginalize alternative views."</I><BR/><BR/>It is important for people to be mindful that although an opinion might be a majority opinion that does not mean it is the consensus opinion. It is important to realize that we have all had different life experiences that guide and form our opinions, and we need to respect (not just tolerate) opinions that differ from our own. I agree that there is a responsibility of the denomination to not make people holding minority opinions feel like they are any less of a UU, but I don't see silence on issues as the only means of achieving this.<BR/><BR/><I>TheCSO - "Also, I've been reading the Social Witness Process Review Panel's report. It starts off with an acknowledgement that the UUA's social justice processes are *not* representative of majority views. (See Section II, "The Problems We Were Asked To Solve".)"</I><BR/><BR/>If I flip a coin to determine what the majority opinion is, then I have a flawed process, but that does not mean that it necessarily gave inaccurate results. I have a 50/50 chance of having been correct.<BR/><BR/>The way I read the report they say that the majority of UU congregations do not fully participate in the process, not that they have surveyed and determined that past results are indeed inaccurate. Perhaps this seems like a minor distinction but I think it is worth noting. The system might need improvement, but that does not mean mean it is definitely giving inaccurate results. It does undermine the confidence in those results.<BR/><BR/>If you saw something that specifically states the views are not representative let me know, but what I saw only said that they are not confident in the process.<BR/><BR/>With that said I would certainly welcome improvements in...<BR/><BR/>...the accuracy of the methodology used to determine majority opinion<BR/><BR/>...improvements to the quality of the written positions, including firmer moral grounding.<BR/><BR/>...perhaps a better review process from the Washington Office to ensure the specific statements are reflective of the majority.<BR/><BR/>...expanded statements or links to expanded statements from the washington office to explain reasoning for statements.<BR/><BR/>I would not welcome...<BR/><BR/>...the end of social witness<BR/><BR/>...limitation to moral positions, and not taking it the political level. In particular GLBT needs to go to the political level.UUpdaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11760554842376249263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126820680604474232005-09-15T17:44:00.000-04:002005-09-15T17:44:00.000-04:00Actually, there's a 2004 General Assembly vote sup...<I>Actually, there's a 2004 General Assembly vote supporting our denominational work in this area. It's the 2004 Statement of Conscience on Civil Liberties. Here's what this Statement of Conscience says about judicial nominations:</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks for digging that up, Steve. However, the fact that <I>you</I> had to do so, and then had to come up with your own independent argument as to how that related to the UUAWO's public statements, shows exactly what's wrong with the way UUAWO goes about things. Why can't the UUAWO do that for themselves?faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126813443741130842005-09-15T15:44:00.000-04:002005-09-15T15:44:00.000-04:00I agree that these positions are not de jure creed...I agree that these positions are not de jure creedal tests. However, they ARE frequently treated as a de facto creed. Just saying "you're allowed to disagree with your church" does not absolve the church of a responsibility to not marginalize alternative views. And making one position on a hotly contested issue the "official position of the UUA" *does* marginalize alternative views.<BR/><BR/>However, I see an even larger problem with the wording of these resolutions. There is almost no attempt to put these issues in a greater framework. These statements, both RIW and SoC, are simply statements of support for a specific political issue. Moral issues, which are much more the domain of religion, are hardly mentioned if at all. At least when other religions take political positions, they place those positions in a moral context. While I disagree with, say, the Catholic Church's "non-negotiable moral principles", at least they clearly show how their political positions are rooted in those moral ones. If we must take political stands, shouldn't they at least be rooted in moral stands so they can be taken seriously? Right now the UUAWO's positions read like a political party (guess which one) platform - highly specific and without justification or argument. It's just a big list of positions.<BR/><BR/>Also, I've been reading the Social Witness Process Review Panel's <A HREF="http://www.uua.org/uuawo/new/downloads/swrp_finalreport.pdf" REL="nofollow">report</A>. It starts off with an acknowledgement that the UUA's social justice processes are *not* representative of majority views. (See Section II, "The Problems We Were Asked To Solve".)TheCSOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158667972488862686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126783608914244572005-09-15T07:26:00.000-04:002005-09-15T07:26:00.000-04:00Chalicechick wrote:"I mean, come on, commenting on...Chalicechick wrote:<BR/><I>"I mean, come on, commenting on specific judicial nominees?"</I><BR/><BR/>Actually, there's a 2004 General Assembly vote supporting our denominational work in this area. It's the 2004 Statement of Conscience on Civil Liberties. Here's what this Statement of Conscience says about judicial nominations:<BR/><BR/><B>"We oppose nominees to the federal appeals courts or the Supreme Court whose records demonstrate insensitivity to the protection of civil liberties.</B><BR/>http://www.uua.org/actions/civil-liberties/04civil-liberties.html<BR/><BR/>This language was also used to support our involvement in the judicial nominations filibuster debate as well.<BR/><BR/>Unlike "Actions of Immediate Witness" that are proposed at one specific General Assembly and then debated/voted on at that one GA, a Statement of Conscience is created over a two year study/action timeline where members of local congregations are encouraged and invited to participate in their congregations.<BR/><BR/>Congregations are encouraged to provide their inputs throughout the two year study/action process. And much of this process happens locally and not just at GA.<BR/><BR/>Because of this extensive opportunity for congregational involvement throughout the two year study/action cycle, UUA Statements of Conscience are given greater weight than Action of Immediate Witness (considered, debated, and voted upon at just one GA). These Statements of Conscience are considered "official" UUA policy, but there is still an individual conscience escape clause.<BR/><BR/>Here's the info on this from the UUA Commission on Social Witness web site:<BR/><BR/><B>"A UUA Statement of Conscience ... becomes “official” UUA policy, to be supported by the Association and by Unitarian Universalists everywhere according to their individual consciences, priorities and means."</B><BR/>http://www.uua.org/csw/participate%28speakout%29.htmlhttp://www.uua.org/csw/participate%28speakout%29.html<BR/><BR/>Given the individual conscience escape clause here, I don't see how anyone could consider this a "creedal test."<BR/><BR/>All this information on the UUA social justice process is freely available on the web. Even I could find it (and if I can find it easily, I'm sure that all of you can find it just as easily).Steve Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333184436301854794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126675766928369432005-09-14T01:29:00.000-04:002005-09-14T01:29:00.000-04:00I'm uneasy about any political statement the UUA o...I'm uneasy about any political statement the UUA or any congregation makes. <BR/>I think it's a legal disaster waiting to happen. They jepordize their status as nonprofit organizations.<BR/><BR/>Another problem I have is that for every statement the UUA/churches make, there are going to be people who have to decide "Am I going to go with the church on this, or am I going to go agaist that church?" <BR/>No one should feel like they're on one side, and their church is on another.<BR/><BR/>I see a relatively simple solution to the problems listed here. Start a Political Organization with "UU values". It would get no official backing or money from the UUA, idividual UU's would support it. <BR/><BR/>Other religions have such groups, why shouldn't we? Let churches do what churches do, and lobbyists lobby.<BR/><BR/>If there is a significant contingent of UU's that disagree with one of it's stands, there can be multiple such organizations. (UU republicans)<BR/>This removes any percieved need for the washington office to make political statements. In fact it <I>frees</I> the UUA to make broader 'moral' statements, which I think would be more effective.(and which don't presume to speak on anyone's behalf.) I think alot of people would be UU's if they knew who we are, and I don't think they get to know us, or what we should be, from our majority political views. ('great, a religion of democrats...')<BR/><BR/>The problem I think is that we've got to get the political wing of Unitarian Universalism to adopt this strategy, and at the same time hammer the UUA and the congregations to stop being political.<BR/><BR/>People bringing their politics to church is a thornier issue, I'm not sure how to deal with it.indraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05077014748902924745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126674391657327302005-09-14T01:06:00.000-04:002005-09-14T01:06:00.000-04:00TheCSO - I hope I never implied that I thought a m...TheCSO - I hope I never implied that I thought a majority did imply consensus. I think for any group the size of the UUA consensus is not likely practical to achieve, and therefore not desirable to attempt. The democratic majority may be flawed, but I think it's the best thing we have.<BR/><BR/>Also, although I am not happy about anyone feeling marginalized in their minority opinion (and I hold a few of those myself) I would still prefer to be marginalized on occasion to abandoning the public religious dialogue. I think having no voice would be worse.UUpdaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11760554842376249263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126672496131239412005-09-14T00:34:00.000-04:002005-09-14T00:34:00.000-04:00I do not think that a majority implies a consensus...I do not think that a majority implies a consensus, and I do not think that the UUA should take stands on any issue where there is not a consensus.<BR/><BR/>Since the UUA's governance structure is not consensus-based, this means that in practice I oppose the UUA taking positions on political issues.TheCSOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158667972488862686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126672118891229662005-09-14T00:28:00.000-04:002005-09-14T00:28:00.000-04:00TheCSO - Well, I think the basis of where we don't...TheCSO - Well, I think the basis of where we don't see eye to eye is that I don't believe when someone speaks for a group it is a necessary conclusion that everyone in the group agrees with that opinion. In most groups of reasonable folks I have met there is still disagreement. So let me turn this around. If not the UUA speaking as an authority for UUs, then who? If the statements being made do not have a basis in a democratic process of resolution at GA, then what process? Or do you think UUs as a denomination should have no public voice?<BR/><BR/>Fausto/CC - I am not trying to say the UUAWO is perfect, I don't get the filibuster thing either. The distinction I would make is that I do question their choices, but not that they have been granted the authority to make those choices.UUpdaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11760554842376249263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864334.post-1126660947874473192005-09-13T21:22:00.000-04:002005-09-13T21:22:00.000-04:00Sometimes my problem is not merely that I object t...Sometimes my problem is not merely that I object to the concept of politicing in church, or even that I disagree with the stand on the issue... sometimes I just hate being associated with a public lsughing stock. Do you know why Weird Al Yankovic doesn't parody country music? It's because a successful parody is the real thing, just taken over the top- and country music already IS over the top- he could he make it look any sillier than "Achey Breaky Heart" did? Look in the Washington Advocacy Office archives for last April: "From April 8-17, congregations from different faith communities across the country will be taking part in a "Blessing of the Taxes" around tax day, April 15.<BR/><BR/>The Blessing of the Taxes is a "faith based initiative" to reclaim the positive value of taxes and the vital public services they fund...as a matter of faithful conviction. <BR/><BR/>In recent decades there has been an organized political movement to demonize taxes, and progressive taxation in particular. The Blessing of the Taxes can help to reframe the national conversation about the role of government in society and its moral and spiritual imperatives.<BR/><BR/>While we as faithful people are committed to voluntary service, we recognize that our religious charities lack the resources to adequately respond to our country's or the worldís pressing problems. As religious communities, we advocate for a strong public sector funded by taxes to do works of divine compassion.<BR/><BR/>The Blessing<BR/>We ask God's blessing on our taxes due this April 15. We thank God for the ways that our taxes invest our money for the common good. And we pray for strength as citizens to press our state and federal governments to spend our taxes in ways that promote justice and peace.<BR/><BR/>Suggestions for using the "Blessing of the Taxes"<BR/>in your congregation or community:<BR/>Laying hands on envelopes containing tax returns or copies of returns in worship, and praying over them or creating an altar for tax returns<BR/>Weaving the blessing into sermons or pastoral prayers<BR/>Conducting special worship services<BR/>Conducting prayer vigils at local Post Offices on April 15 (a great and easy way to get local media attention!)<BR/>Distributing the blessing with attached information about how taxes are used and how citizens can contact their legislators<BR/><BR/>Sample "Blessing"<BR/>We ask God's blessing on our taxes due this April 15. We thank God for the ways that our taxes invest our money for the common good. Paying taxes is our sacred duty. And acting as citizens to assure that they are spent wisely is our sacred duty as well. <BR/><BR/>Our faith traditions affirm that from those to whom much has been given, much will be required. Progressive taxation--the payment of a higher rate of taxation by those who have higher incomes--is just and good. Greater wealth depends greatly on tax-subsidized regulation and protection of the economy. And greater wealth carries with it a higher level of moral responsibility for the well-being of our society.<BR/><BR/>We pray for strength as citizens to press our state and federal governments to spend our taxes in ways that promote justice and peace. We believe that the budget priorities of our Governor and our President do not reflect our moral values. Human needs at home and abroad are being neglected. Budget allocations for education, health, and social services are being cut. Social Security, a program intended to prevent poverty among the elderly and disabled, is threatened with a privatization scheme. Meanwhile, terrible loss of life and runaway spending continues in the war in Iraq.<BR/><BR/>We prayerfully ask our Governor and Legislature to preserve health, education, and social supports for the most vulnerable of our citizens, even if it means raising taxes on those with the highest incomes. We prayerfully ask our President and Congress to re-direct our taxes toward human needs at home and more peaceable purposes abroad. We thank God for the freedom we enjoy, and for the common good that our tax payments support.<BR/><BR/>Candle-Lighting Ceremony and Prayer<BR/><BR/>This candle is for all the children who learn to read and write in public schools, paid for by our taxes.<BR/><BR/>This candle is for public health workers who protect us from epidemics and preventable diseases every day, paid for by our taxes.<BR/><BR/>This candle is for the roads and bridges and sewers and water systems that make civilization possible, paid for by our taxes.<BR/><BR/>This candle is for the defense of our security and the keeping of peace, at home and abroad, paid for by our taxes.<BR/><BR/>This candle is for the elderly and low income people who depend on social services and funds and health care, paid for by our taxes.<BR/><BR/>This candle is the foreign health and development and humanitarian aid, paid for by our taxes to help people in need around the world.<BR/><BR/>This candle is for economic regulation and support structures, paid for by our taxes, which enable free enterprise to flourish in our country.<BR/><BR/>This candle is for environmental laws and enforcement, paid for by our taxes, which protect nature and keep our air and water clean.<BR/><BR/>This candle is for the ways we don't want our taxes to be spent.<BR/><BR/>This candle is for the ways we would prefer our taxes to be spent..."<BR/> and it goes on, and on... If Mad Magazine had wanted to parody UUs, they couldn't have done better. It's not really any sillier in concept than Rev Sinkford calling a single day of no solid food from sunup to sundown a "fast", (who hasn't done that in a hectic workday), and thinking it will bring about world peace, but it reads sillier.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com